Pynk Spots

Shame & Anger with Kye from Feelin Weird

December 01, 2020 Nic & Kye
Pynk Spots
Shame & Anger with Kye from Feelin Weird
Show Notes Transcript

Pynk Spot's first collaborative episode is with Kye Plant (they/them) from Feelin Weird Podcast!

This conversation is an extension of the one we had over on Feelin Weird where we talked about autism, anger, and childhood trauma. Listen to that episode here!

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Nichole [00:00:01] Hey everyone. It's quickly becoming tradition that I have to do a little disclaimer before the episode. My guest today, Kye, actually does an intro and outro for their podcast episode, which I do quite enjoy so possibly that's something I might do as well. However, as you all know, I'm trying to keep the workload on these as low as possible so we'll see. But for today I did want to pop in here for a minute. There were a few things that happen that I want to make you aware of. So one is that although I had Kye and myself record our audio locally so that the quality would be better, I, silly person that I can be sometimes, had muted my mic to not pick up some noise that I was making at the time and did not unmute my mic so my audio did not get recorded, which means that I had to use the live stream audio. It isn't as bad as I was afraid it would be but just to let you know that that's why the audio quality today is lower than I would like it to be.

Nichole [00:01:12] Also to that end, Kye had some crackling noises on their end, on their audio during the live stream. This was resolved around I think the 20 minute mark or so, but it is there up until that point. Hopefully you can kind of power through it until then. I do a large part of the talking for that time, but then we do get into a back and forth and you can hear it. So do know if it is unbearable to you that you can jump forward, yeah, again to around the 20 minute mark and it should be cleared up by then.

Nichole [00:01:49] And then lastly, I just wanted to let you all know, I know we have some people who are very sensitive to conflict. So Kye I did have, I guess you could call it a moment of tension, towards the end of the episode. There was a, I guess we could call it a misunderstanding or a language thing. I was fine during it and it did get resolved quite nicely. So I just wanted to let everyone know. I know for some of you, any kind of, you know, tension can be really scary. So I just wanted to let you know that it's, I think, a pretty safe thing to listen to. You know, we talked it through and got on the same page and everything was fine and I was totally fine for the whole conversation. So I just wanted to let everyone know that. And as I said, it's right at the very end of the episode, right before we close up. So probably like 15 or 20 minutes before the ending.

Nichole [00:02:53] So that's about it. I had a really nice time working with Kye. If you enjoyed this and you haven't heard the episode we did over on Feelin Weird, I really encourage you to go listen to it. And I just appreciate y'all tuning in. So I think for this episode, I am also going to pop on an outro so you'll be hearing from editing Nic at the end of this episode. Enjoy.

Nichole [00:03:35] Welcome to Pynk Spots, a queer anarchist space where we smash the patriarchy by celebrating what is strong about being soft. Here we'll explore what is vulnerable, raw, hurt, healed, sensual, queer, and controversial. So join me and my friends from around the internet as we talk about deep shit and prove, as Janelle Monáe said, that pink is the truth you can't hide.

Nichole [00:04:10] Hey everybody. Welcome to Pynk Spots. As you can see today, I am joined by Kye from the podcast Feelin Weird. And that's Feeling with no g. Kye and I recorded an episode earlier this week for Kye's show and today will be a continuation of that conversation. On Feelin Weird, the episode largely centered around anger and also parental stuff. And today's episode, we're going to continue that conversation, but largely focused around, say, shame and self-judgment. So for those of you who are not familiar with the show, Kye's show, Feelin Weird, is actually a huge inspiration for Pynk Spots, which is why I'm so honored to have them as my first guest, my first official collaboration.

Nichole [00:05:11] Their podcast is Kye talking to other people about stuff that makes us all feel weird. So it's really cool, very comfortable, vulnerable conversations about stuff like ADHD and addiction and all kinds of amazing things. Autism was recently featured and that's how Kye and I actually got connected. So I'm very honored to have Kye here. Thank you, Kye, for being here.

Kye [00:05:44] Am I allowed to speak?

Nichole [00:05:45] Yes, please speak.

Kye [00:05:46] I don't know the rules.

Nichole [00:05:46] No, you have to sit there and just listen to me.

Kye [00:05:53] I was thinking like the whole time I could just, like, sit here and look cute.

Nichole [00:05:57] That's true.

Kye [00:05:59] And then just not say anything.

Nichole [00:06:03] That would be an amazing. Some people would actually feel that that was appropriate, that that would be my show, is just have people come on and look cute and watch me talk.

Kye [00:06:13] Like, I just, I could just be like the cat on the couch.

Nichole [00:06:17] Yeah, it's like nice, nice. Yeah, so Kye is here for more than just looking pretty. We are actually going to have a conversation. So to kick it off, I know Kye's episode hasn't been published yet.

Kye [00:06:35] Not true, I just put it out.

Nichole [00:06:39] What?! That's amazing. OK, so you could ditch the live stream and go listen to that. However, I would appreciate if you stayed. So as I said, I kind of wanted to kick off the conversation today with something that happened on our recording and then move forward. But I highly, highly recommend that everyone go check out our collaboration on Feelin Weird. I highly recommend you check out Feeling Weird because it's fucking awesome. It's one of my all-time favorite podcasts. I think it's wonderful. I think Kye is doing some really radical - we talk about queer anarchy here a lot. I don't know that Kye identifies that way, but I think the work that they're doing is extremely radical in the sense of what we've been talking about a lot here, which is building connections with other people, modeling community building and, you know, resistance through vulnerability and honesty. So yes, highly recommend.

Nichole [00:07:42] So, Kye, my guest, new friend, we-.

Kye [00:07:49] I feel like I am the cat. I'm just, like I've just been like, being pet. Like, yes tell me more, say more nice things.

Nichole [00:07:58] I want to know more about how great I am. Yeah so, Kye, we just had a very intense conversation on Feelin Weird. In the best way, it was wonderful. I think we both got into some areas we hadn't expected. And one thing that happened while we were talking was I sort of got caught up in a moment of actual anger. I got actually mad. Not just talking about being mad, as you all know, which is what I'm very good at. I'm very good at talking about feeling an emotion rather than maybe actually feeling the emotion. And I moved pretty quickly out of that into sort of contextualizing what I was talking about and getting myself out of the feeling of being angry, and kind of moving away from the content that was making me angry.

Nichole [00:08:59] And Kye called it out, you know, as a way to check in and say, hey I noticed that you sort of backed away from this, are you OK? Are you feeling all right? And it really stuck with me after we stopped recording, and I was really deeply thinking about, like, why did I do that? You know, I wasn't even super consciously aware that I had done that. Coincidentally, I also watched Hillbilly Elegy, I think that's the name of the effigy, that night which I highly recommend. But it was perfect timing because it was a movie, this is no spoilers, it's a movie about... Really about a guy who comes from a family where his mother struggles with addiction and, you know, they're like a hillbilly type family, like a poor white family. And him struggling to... He's in a moment where he's about to improve his station in life, but he's getting pulled back into this family drama.

Nichole [00:10:02] And in the movie, he tries to keep his girlfriend from seeing the reality of his family's situation. Like she wants to come back home with him, to support him and he's like, no, I don't want you to see this. And it just made me think a lot about how there is a big difference between telling people something as a fact and then allowing them to actually feel the texture of the reality of what that is. So I think for me, part of the pulling back was that it was getting too close to actually allowing people to kind of taste and feel and smell like what happened to me, rather than intellectually understanding it. And I do think for me that is tied into a bit of shame. I'm not ashamed of how I grew up necessarily, but I've realized that there is still a huge wall in me between telling people the facts of my childhood and actually allowing people to feel the dysfunction and the poverty and the addiction and the abuse of my childhood. And I think that was a big part of it, was that I was veering into this, oh no, this is getting a little bit too real territory, and I need to I need to step back and intellectualize it so it makes people comfortable.

Nichole [00:11:35] So that's where I wanted to kick it off. That's what I've been thinking about. I don't know if that resonates for you at all, but I know you said for you, just the topic of anger being connected into shame resonated. And I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

Kye [00:11:51] Well, first of all, I don't want to enter down this road but was that a book? Was that first a book or is that a book?

Nichole [00:11:59] I think so. I think it was, yeah.

Kye [00:12:00] Yeah, I think I read that. I read that like a couple years ago and, because when you said it, I was like, oh, I know that, but then you said it was a movie and I'm like, oh, maybe I don't know that. Anyway, that's a whole, that doesn't really matter.

Nichole [00:12:12] We love a tangent around here, don't worry.

Kye [00:12:15] Oh, and I love going on them.

Nichole [00:12:18] That's what we're known for.

Kye [00:12:18] One of my favorite roads to go down is a tangent. I have these things that I bought from like the hardware store the other day and I accidentally stole them. And so now they're my, like my fidget spinner.

Nichole [00:12:38] Oh nice. Your illegal goods.

Kye [00:12:38] I'll just be playing with this the whole time. What the fuck am I... First of all, I just want to say that I feel very nervous. I, this is... It feels like I grew up playing shows and being in bands and doing live performance art and all of that and so this feels very similar to that. It's like I'm on stage or something, but like except I can't see any of the people, it's very strange. So I feel like scared. And also like, but it's also like, oh, it's fun, it's like a fun scared.

Nichole [00:13:11] Yeah. That's how I am every time. I'm still nervous right before I go live, but it's also like a thrill. Like I can't imagine going back to just regular podcasting now all the time, yeah.

Kye [00:13:24] Right. Well and I think I picked up on that right away when I, like when you asked me how I was, I think I had already kind of picked up on something like I could kind of tell that you were feeling maybe nervous or something was up. When you asked me how I was feeling, I like did not answer because I was like, I don't know, is there something happening? And this like always happens where I can pick up on something, and then if the person doesn't say explicitly what they're feeling-

Nichole [00:13:47] What it is.

Kye [00:13:47] I start to question what I'm, like, whether I'm like intuiting it wrong. Yeah, I've been talking to my partner about that a lot, where I'm like I, it's like being such a source of, like, frustration and shame for me where I'm like - because I'm so intuitive but then at the same time I just like judge the shit out of myself and tell myself I'm wrong.

Nichole [00:14:07] Yeah, that's very relatable. Yeah, and it's yeah, I struggle with like this format is going to be challenging for me, even though I'm excited about it, because I always really worry about people being comfortable and people having like full consent, I guess. Like fully understanding what's going to happen, you know, understanding what's coming up, understanding what they're consenting to. So, yeah, I get on, the first time I do this with someone is always difficult for me because I'm like, I want to make sure that I don't forget to tell them something and that they're OK and they know what's coming up. But then I kind of don't have time to take a breath and just sort of center, yeah. So yeah, that's probably what you picked up on.

Kye [00:14:57] Yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad that I could bring it up and we could just talk about it because it calms me knowing, like to hear that your, your experience. Because then it deescalates that story in my head that I did something wrong. You know, cause that's the child part of me learned, and which goes into shame. It's like that I did something wrong, I'm the problem. I caused my dad's anger or my dad's frustration or him shutting down. So hearing your experience, it's just like, OK, it's OK. It's OK. And then my intuition is no longer debilitating. It's actually the superpower that I think it can be.

Nichole [00:15:38] Yes, I love that.

Kye [00:15:40] Yeah. OK, so I want to answer your question and I don't totally remember what it was, but I remember it was connected to anger and shame and our conversation last time. And if I give myself a second, I can remember. But I think because it's a live stream now, I feel terrified that I'll leave some silence and then someone will write a comment about how I take too long to answer things.

Nichole [00:16:05] Well, the children are on their best behavior when we have guests, so you don't have to worry about that. Take as long as you need.

Kye [00:16:12] Plus I'm a cat so it doesn't even matter.

Nichole [00:16:13] Yeah. Well you're pretty so people can just look, they can look at both of us while we're thinking and that will be fine.

Kye [00:16:23] I'm blushing.

Nichole [00:16:26] We're getting a little buzz on your audio. I don't know how to troubleshoot that.

Kye [00:16:31] OK, do, I can switch over to-

Nichole [00:16:33] Maybe just check the connections or if you have another mic?

Kye [00:16:36] Well, The mic hasn't changed so I think I'm going to switch it over to... Um...

Nichole [00:16:45] This is also the fun of live streaming. Real time tech troubleshooting.

Kye [00:16:52] Has that changed my audio? Is there's still a buzz?

Nichole [00:16:57] Yeah. No, no buzz.

Kye [00:17:02] OK, problem solved.

Nichole [00:17:02] Perfect, thank you.

Kye [00:17:02] OK, so to answer the question... What was the question?

Nichole [00:17:08] I mean, really just...

Kye [00:17:11] Your response.

Nichole [00:17:12] Really just whatever you want to talk about.

Kye [00:17:15] All right. I just, can you just let me go? Am I allowed to be a cat?

Nichole [00:17:19] Yeah. You, please.

Kye [00:17:21] OK, so what you said really resonates with me. And I think it ties into basically my entire journey, which is learning to feel and process my emotions, not just intellectualize them, which is what I have been doing all my life, because I grew up in a family where I wasn't able to process my feelings. I was... They weren't welcome. They weren't... There wasn't space made for them. So I learned at a young age that my feelings weren't welcome. And so in order to minimize them or... I guess I was trying to eliminate them, but really just to survive, I learned how to think my way out of them. And I think that ties into shame because there's so much shame about having the feeling to begin with. And shame, I understand as adaptive. It's something that's trying to protect me in the moment because of the family of origin that I grew up in. I had to adapt to the way that they needed me to be. And so the shame, it is helpful. But at this point in my life, I'm thirty four I think. No, I'm pretty sure I'm thirty four.

Nichole [00:18:45] That's very relatable.

Kye [00:18:45] And it's no longer helpful. Like it's so painful and debilitating and it shows up as me staying in bed all day or me just telling myself I'm a piece of shit that like will never do anything right and will never get anything right. But going back to that is, intellectualizing emotions as opposed to actually processing them, I think is such a big part of not only my life, but like most people's lives, and especially people that have not, as children, had like emotional processing modeled for them. How does that line up for you?

Nichole [00:19:28] Yeah, I completely, that resonates for me pretty heavily. I also grew up in an environment where my... There was no space for my emotions with my father who was disgusted by them, and made that very clear. Or annoyed by them, right, angered by them, bothered by them. And then my mother, who was often in the midst of her own emotional crisis and needed me to take care of her. So I've gotten to a point where, I think that's because a big part of what I kept chewing on after our other conversation was, how is this tying into shame for me? Where is the shame coming from, right? And I think for me it's still very, because with my mother, I don't think it's shame so much as it's a primal fear. It's that it wasn't safe to be lost in my emotions because my caretaker was lost in hers. So I had to keep it together because no one else was going to. And I was often left in charge of my younger sisters who were three and a half and seven years younger than me. So they were like, significantly younger, you know. I was at times in charge of, like, literal babies.

Nichole [00:20:59] So with her, I understand why I'm afraid to get lost in my emotions, but I couldn't quite pinpoint why am I also feeling shame? Because I was surprised by that. I didn't think that I had a shame response to my feelings but-

Kye [00:21:15] What, can I interject here? What did the shame feel like or like, how did you know it was shame?

Nichole [00:21:22] It just, well, I think your question made me really uncomfortable and I'm not often uncomfortable. You know, and I had -

Kye [00:21:32] Do you mean when I pointed it out that you changed the subject, or?

Nichole [00:21:36] Yeah, not when it happened, but after we stopped recording, I was walking around all day feeling really anxious and for some reason, I just kept feeling... Like for me it can be hard to piece apart shame and anxiety because usually shame causes me anxiety, which I'm sure it does for a lot of people. But that's kind of how I connected it to shame, because the way I grew up with my father is that I just often felt like I had done something wrong. Like I could just be sitting on the couch not moving and be like all of a sudden, like, I've done something wrong, I'm in trouble, you know?

Kye [00:22:17] Yeah.

Nichole [00:22:18] Because that was my home environment, too. You know, he would come home and just choose something to be mad about and then all of a sudden you're in trouble even though you didn't do anything. So that was kind of the feeling I had. And I'm like, this is silly. Like, why, why am I feeling this way? And then like I said, it was good timing that I watched that movie and I was like, I think that there's a connection here with how my father made me feel, which is that my emotions are disgusting and annoying and very bothersome. On top of that, it also being because I knew we were doing something that was going to be public. There was also the shame of, oh no, I'm getting a little bit too close to people actually being able to truly feel my experience rather than just intellectually understanding it.

Kye [00:23:14] Yeah.

Nichole [00:23:15] You know, when I was in high school, things were always bad, but in high school things got really bad. And it made me feel like how I would go to school and maybe I would tell a teacher that I was having a hard time or, you know, my guidance counselor. And that was one thing to just say I'm having a hard time, you know, my mom's drinking and these things are going on. But I didn't have friends over. Right, I didn't have anyone come in my house and actually see my mom be drunk. So that's what it felt like to me, is like this is the difference between me talking to a counselor about my mom's drinking, and someone coming into my home and seeing my mother drunk.

Nichole [00:24:06] Like the cops brought my mom home a few times, you know, and it was just that feeling of like, oh, someone else has actually seen our family mess. Like, they know, they know what my mom looks like when she's drunk and how she acts and that feels really shameful. Even though I'm not ashamed of my mom drinking. It's a very confusing thing to me. I can say here, my mom is an alcoholic and not feel shame about that and not, and to have empathy for it. But someone seeing my mother in the middle of a drunken rage or a drunken stupor, that's a different thing.

Kye [00:24:48] Yeah. Yeah, I get that.

Nichole [00:24:54] Yeah.

Kye [00:24:55] It's like, yeah, like I really... I hear you and I can connect in my own way, even though I haven't had that experience and... What comes to mind for me is like this, just this idea of being like really like, like for someone seeing me in the parts that I don't want to show. Like I get the sense that whatever it is that that was that I pointed out is something that has protected you. And I think that something that protects you is, it's like I saw, it's like when someone... OK, I'll just like take this, I'll own this. Like I have my own protective mechanisms and if you were to point them out and show them, suddenly there's like this idea that I can't hide behind them or protect myself from you. That wall is gone and that wall is there to protect me, like it's my safety wall. So to me, it makes sense why that would feel challenging or you would feel anxious or that there would be some shame that would come up. Because I think what happened was like a really vulnerable thing. And I could tell that there was something there.

Kye [00:26:30] I think that there was a... There was this group that I was involved in where we were doing all this kind of like emotional processing, like together as people that were not counselors. It was like pretty radical and cool. But it was also problematic in the way that, like people who aren't trained to lead, you know, emotional processing or leading emotional processing and it could be dangerous at times. But there was - [loud background noise] oh, that's distracting. OK, there was a person in that group that I was involved with for like eight months, and everything was always just like up here, intellectualizing everything, everything, everything. And me and this other guy who was autistic, were just like, no get in your feeling, what does it *feel* like?! Give me the feeling! And clearly it was a trigger for me and for him because I've been around people that intellectualize everything and I just feel it. But then I've also learned to intellectualize it. And then I feel like frustrated when I see other people intellectualizing it because I'm like, no, but you can like, get to the heart, like see the sadness, let's see the anger, let's see the scared.

Kye [00:27:46] And so I'm very, like, attuned to that and I'm very aware of when people are intellectualizing their emotions rather than, like, feeling them. And so I think that's why it was like very obvious to me. And at the same time, I can see, it's interesting now to hear your perspective, because I wouldn't have thought that, like, oh, that would have brought up some shame for you or for the person who I used to be in that group with. I wouldn't have thought about that. And it's so interesting to hear that because, like, now I'm like, oh right, now I think I can maybe... I think at least it'll give me more compassion for you or for someone else in the future if I ever do that again. Because I don't think it's a bad thing to do that, it's just I wouldn't have thought about shame coming up from that. I think in my head I would have been like, oh, this will be helpful. This will just lead to more connection between them. But potentially it could actually be very destructive because that is like something that is very helpful for that person potentially. Does that does that make sense?

Nichole [00:28:52] Yeah. And I mean, I was as surprised as anybody that shame came up for me. And that's why I spent so much emotional energy, particularly that night, but I mean, ever since we had that conversation, just being like, what is this? Why am I feeling this way? And I think, yeah, you nailed it too, that, you know, when you have a coping mechanism that has become so ingrained in you that you're not even really consciously aware that it's a coping mechanism, it can just feel very scary to have someone point it out. Because I know for me, I mean, if I'm aware that I'm doing it, that's one thing but to not be aware, especially as someone who tries to do so much introspection.

Nichole [00:29:44] And it's not like I don't know that I intellectualize my emotions, but I don't think I was like... I didn't have this conscious train of thought that, oh no, I'm getting too emotional, I better change the subject. You know, it just sort of happened. And to me, it was interesting because I felt like I sort of lost control a little bit and then recovered. But that's not what you saw. You saw I was getting into a real emotion and then I pulled back from it. So yeah, to have, I think to have that other perspective, just yeah, it just brought up a lot of stuff. And I agree, I think for me it was something I'm grateful for. And I do feel closer to you and happy that we had that experience together. But I can see how for some people it could be, you know.

Nichole [00:30:43] I'm always very worried about triggering someone else, which is hard because I'm like you, I also notice things and like to ask questions and kind of challenge people. So it's always a weird line to walk where you're like, is it OK that I point this out for someone? Because I think at the end of the day, most of us want to be truly seen, so we kind of want someone to see through our coping mechanisms. But it can also be... It can also be really challenging. And depending on your mindset and what the topic is, it can, you can maybe not be ready for it, so yeah.

Kye [00:31:27] Yeah, definitely. Like I mean, I probably appeared to people who listen to Feelin Weird or even potentially to people like listening right now as if I'm like, I'm like really good at processing my emotions and like I'm very aware of when I have all of my defense mechanisms up. But like a source of conflict between my partner and I, like constantly, is me not wanting to talk about my feelings. And I feel a little bit like, sad when I name that right now. It's just like... It like taps into like some, like really severe pain from childhood that, like, I need space and sometimes I just like don't want to talk about it. Like just, and I can almost get to like an aggressive point where, like, I'll be like, very angry, like, leave me alone like, I don't want to talk about it. Even though, like, you know, logically, I understand that processing my emotions with a safe person is very helpful and very connective. And I will feel better if I do that. But sometimes, like because of how I've grown up, that's not accessible a lot of the time.

Kye [00:32:48] And sometimes I just need space and sometimes I just like, I want to be left alone. And it's really hard, and then shame will come up because I'm like, fuck, I wish I could do, like I should be doing this thing or processing this emotion. But like, I just want to, like, pretend nothing's happening and bury my head in work or like pretend everything's OK. And like, yeah, that goes back to our conversation the other day where it's like, I'm like in so many fucking ways - am I allowed to swear?

Nichole [00:33:22] Um, we joke that it's required here. You must say at least one f-bomb per episode.

Kye [00:33:29] Actually on the outro of our episode that I just posted, my last few words were just, I think they were like seven expletives and I was like, ah I don't fucking care. Anyway.

Nichole [00:33:40] I like on the last episode of yours I listened to, you were like, whatever you say, you were like, you motherfucking weirdos. You were like, and I just looked, and you're like, I don't know why I just said that but I stand by it.

Kye [00:33:55] I don't know why, sometimes I just like, I just can't help cursing. And I think it's because it's like so wholesome, the whole thing. And then I just wanna be like, yeah but fuck you, get out of here ahhhh.

Nichole [00:34:05] No, it is because you're outro is always so, it is so wholesome. And then you're like, all right you fucking weirdos. And I was like, I love Kye.

Kye [00:34:18] Oh, that's so nice of you. Thank you. What I was going to say is that in so many fucking ways, I am just like my dad and just like my mom. And like when I feel so frustrated towards them because they're avoiding their feelings or they don't want to talk about it, it's like when I'm in the position where I'm me and I'm talking to them, just like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Just come on, let's talk about it, let's feel it. And then when I'm with my partner, I'm just like, leave me the fuck alone, I don't want to talk about it, get out of here. It's hard.

Nichole [00:34:52] Do you find it... Oh shit, I had a question and I just lost it.

Kye [00:34:58] It's like, side note, how do you pay attention to comments and stay engaged? Like I just one time, I don't know if you noticed this, but one time I clicked the comments just to read, and I saw someone wrote like, "I'm thirty four I think," and lmao or something like that. And I just started laughing but then I was like, no, but I'm talking to Nic! And then I was like ahhhh trying to act cool.

Nichole [00:35:21] I know. Very difficult, it takes a lot of practice. And also I probably shouldn't but yeah I've gotten better at it. It's hard because the comments are so amazing, but then you're also like, I'm definitely not going to be engaged with my person here if I'm reading all of these. Anyway, I was going to ask you something about.... Oh, I was going to ask you, because this is something I think maybe I struggle with is, and I feel like I maybe kind of noticed this when we talked. Is it hard for you to know, like even what you need when you're in these moments? Because I struggle with that. Like, even if I have, I have a hard time picking romantic partners in particular who are just supportive in general. But like, I have a hard time finding people where I feel like there's space for all my stuff. And then when there is, I find that sometimes because I'm not used to it, it's so hard for me to name what I actually need.

Nichole [00:36:37] And I think that's part of where my intellectualizing comes from as well, because it's like I'm insulating other people from me ever actually being in a place where someone's like, fuck, like, what do you need right now, because you're in a bad way? You know, I kind of always keep this measure of control so anyone close to me is like, oh I know because you told me that you're upset, but I don't feel like I'm worried about you. Right, like I don't feel like you're spinning out right now. And yeah, I find it very difficult sometimes to even answer that question, like, what do you need right now?

Kye [00:37:10] Yeah, yeah. Are you done?

Nichole [00:37:15] Mhmm.

Kye [00:37:15] OK. I have a habit of like when I have a thought, I like, really want to get it out and sometimes when there's a pause, I'll like jump in. And because my partner is like really quiet and reserved, sometimes I'll just like fucking steamroll her and it's not cool because like... Yeah, anyway, so I'm trying to like check in when I do that.

Nichole [00:37:38] Well I appreciate it here. Feel free to steamroll me because I talk a lot.

Kye [00:37:42] So anyway! Let me tell you about these fidget spinners! I just yelled into the mic, sorry for that.

Nichole [00:37:52] Your stolen goods. I know, we just blew everyone's ears out. Sorry everyone! We'll fix that in postproduction.

Kye [00:38:02] I feel like I'm a little kid, like I shouldn't be given this power to just be like, like I feel like I'm on stage and I just get to show off. It's really fun.

Nichole [00:38:12] Live streaming is super fun. It's like a drug. Once I started doing it, I'm like I can never not have people reacting in real time to my thoughts ever again.

Kye [00:38:23] Oh man, I feel you. OK, I changed the topic but I'm coming back. It's a really good question. It's really just so pertinent because like my relationship with my partner is the first time in my life that I've navigated, "what do I need?" This whole, my whole life I've been like, why can't, why do I feel so alone? Why do I feel so, like, fucked up? Why do I feel so disconnected and like no one understands me? I need so much help going to the psych ward or going to counseling, whatever, like all of these things. And all of this time I just like wanted help. I wanted support. I had no fucking clue what I needed. And yeah.

Kye [00:39:17] So it's like over this last like almost two years, relationship is like trying to figure out what the fuck do I need? And it was really I think my therapist that kind of got me in touch with that. And the more that I've practiced it, the better I am understanding it. Like I'm getting a lot closer to understanding it. But the really cool and confusing part about it is like, I have to go into those areas where there's so much shame. And be like, like my partner was gone all day yesterday and I felt so happy. I loved just having the house to myself and being able to work by myself and not having her interrupt me. And then when she came home, even though I knew she was coming home at a certain time, I felt angry and I felt scared.

Kye [00:40:17] And so in the morning, she was asking me - she asked me, it was so interesting. She's like, did you feel a reaction when I came home? And I was like, how, what the fuck? Because I'm very honest with her. I'm very open because I'm trying to figure out what my needs are, and going into those places where, like, yeah, sometimes I feel so mad when you, like, come down the stairs. And all of my life I felt so much shame about that because I thought I was a bad person. I thought I was just like this curmudgeon piece of shit that, like, wanted to be alone. But really, it's because I feel scared. I feel overwhelmed when I, when like, someone's going to come into the space because I don't know how to react. And it probably goes into some childhood trauma that I haven't processed.

Kye [00:41:07] But like, because she is like curious about that and wants to support me, she like doesn't take that personally, and she understands that I have a reaction when she comes home sometimes because I feel like overwhelmed. And so it's like figuring out, maybe that's not the greatest example, but it's like figuring out how I can navigate that with another person. So that we can both get our needs met because her need is probably for connection, to feel safe. My need is to feel safe and to feel connected. But I have all these challenges and these obstacles that are, I think, like connected to like autism that just like was never fucking diagnosed. And a lot of it is feeling overstimulated by sounds and light and people.

Kye [00:42:01] And it's like, until I figured out this piece, and I don't have an autism diagnosis so I'm not, like, advocating for, like people with autism or autistic people. I just like, it has finally allowed me to like, look at the parts that I haven't looked at all my life and be like, OK, there are some unmet needs that I've been going through my entire life, and like, what are they? Because now I have to be very honest about like, hey, sometimes I feel mad. Sometimes I feel mad when you come and you want to hug me because I don't want to be touched. And like there's still much shame around that.

Nichole [00:42:43] I relate to that so much. Yes, I... Fuck yes. I have really struggled with that as well. And I also find that understanding that I'm autistic answered a lot of questions for me because... All right, let's go on a little journey. So there's a couple of thoughts I have. One is that I am able to get, it's not sexual and it's not romantic, but I'm able to get a lot of fulfillment and stimulation from being alone. And I don't think that other people who are not autistic, introverted, whatever it is, right, can really understand like how - like I can sometimes, especially at night when it gets quiet and everything settles, I'll get this high and I'll feel like, I don't know, it's like my whole body's buzzing and I just feel so good. And it's like everyone's asleep, I'm by myself.

Nichole [00:43:50] I can't explain it to people but I found that that has created a lot of conflict in my relationships of the fact that I'm not, because I think people kind of want you to be a little miserable when you're alone. Right, or they want you to enjoy it for an hour or two. They don't want you to enjoy it for long stretches of time. And it sounds amazing that you have a partner who understands that and is not taking it personally, because I've dated a lot of people who take it very personally and I've had friends who take it very personally that I truly get pleasure out of being by myself. And I relate to you, I think a lot of it's like being able to be hyper focused on something. I think it's being able to control the noises and the sensations around me. Being able to just eat what I want to eat and not have to worry about, like making food for someone else or, you know, there's just a lot of stuff that might sound selfish, but it's really just about sensory management. You know, it's really not selfishness.

Nichole [00:44:57] So, my other little point and then I'll let you talk, is that this has given me - my father is narcissistic and my mother has borderline personality disorder. And so something I've done a lot of work around is trying to process, I used to really vilify people with personality disorders because I felt like they had such a negative impact on me growing up. However, you know, I had already done work on that, but I find now understanding that I'm autistic has given me a lot of feeling of connection to people with personality disorders because, well, first of all, so many traits of autism are mistaken for personality disorders. So I can understand what it's like to have someone vilify you because you don't express yourself the same way they do or because your needs are different.

Nichole [00:45:51] But I also find that for me, I think something that's similar is that, like, I experience empathy differently. I do have very high empathy, but it's just maybe in a different way from other people. I express love differently. I experience love differently from other people. And that's given me a lot of insight into, you know, just the ways that we pathologize and vilify people's needs when really we should just be like your partner. Being like, listen, I love you. I would rather you be honest with me and at least attempt to meet your needs, right, than take this personally. But I mean, I think that ties into how much the media and other people portray that love is supposed to look a certain way. And one of those certain ways it's supposed to look is that you want to be around each other all the time.

Nichole [00:46:41] I was long distance dating my ex many years ago and we didn't talk on the phone every day. And I remember so many of my friends, like, just couldn't get over that. And I'm like, I don't want to talk to someone on the phone every day. Like, I'm actually very happy about this. And they all thought it was a sign that he was cheating, or that we were going to break up, and I was like, no, I don't want to be stuck on the phone with someone all day. I don't like that, you know? But yeah, we just have these preconceived notions of what partnerships look like or friendships look like. And I think it's really difficult as neurodivergent people, people with certain needs, to not feel like there's something wrong with you for the needs that you have.

Kye [00:47:30] Yeah.

Nichole [00:47:33] Thoughts?

Kye [00:47:33] What comes to mind immediately is like in our, in the Feelin Weird episode when I was talking about, the school system doesn't work for everyone. It didn't work for me. And then you said, it didn't work for me. It's like this idea of like institutionalizing everything because like, there should only be one way that people exist, it's like love exists one way or like friendship exists one way or like a job exists one way or, and it's like, I like fundamentally just like cannot fit into that mold. Like I need, like in order for my needs to be met, in order for me to flourish, I have to exist the way that I exist. Like, I can't be like put in a, like it sounds so silly to say but like I can't be put in a box. Like I have to like, I have to be allowed to like process the way that I process, and express myself the way that I express myself. I need to be allowed to like feel my feelings however they come up and yeah.

Kye [00:48:39] So like I don't know. Yeah, I've felt like, someone broke up with me when I was like 19 because I didn't want to call them every day. And that I didn't want to have sex with them. And it was like both of those tie into like my own personal challenges, which is like a lot of the times I don't like being touched. A lot of the times I like feel terrified of sex. And a lot of the times I don't want to talk to people or like I don't... Like it's weird to be like having this conversation. It's like I probably seem like I'm very like social and outgoing, but I'm not. I like, I don't like talking a lot. I mean sometimes, like I do in spurts but like only when I feel ready to. I can't be like, like when you said, like sometimes I need to, I can't remember if you said hyper focus or concentrate on something, but like that's totally, like that comes up all the time between my partner and I.

Kye [00:49:41] When I'm concentrating on something, whether it's like I'm working on something or I'm listening to a podcast and doing something, and she comes up and she wants to talk, I feel so mad because then it's like distracting me. And it's like until like I've started to kind of like figure out what my need is in that, I've just felt shame about it. I've just like thought I was such a shitty person. I'm like, why can't I be like other people that like, oh, I should just feel happy that she wants to talk to me because she's so supportive and kind. But like, if I buy into that story then I'm neglecting, like, my need, which is like sometimes I feel overwhelmed by, like someone coming up and talking to me when I'm not ready to.

Nichole [00:50:25] Yeah. I have had so many issues with that in relationships. And I think I have now realized in hindsight that all of the people that I've been closest to and like crazy in love with have been other neurodivergent people. Because we tend to be able to get lost in stuff, not together but like at the same time. And also understand that drive, you know, to understand that, like, if you're just lost in something, it's a beautiful thing and to not take it personally, to like not want to interrupt that. But yeah, I've had so many struggles. I dated one person in particular who, you know, I would say I need time to myself, so I would take a night off. And then the whole time he would be texting me being like how's your night off going? And I remember just having-

Kye [00:51:28] It's not a night off if you're texting me.

Nichole [00:51:30] I'm like, I'm going to murder you. Like I cannot believe that you're texting me right now. And you know, it's been a joke with friends of mine that I get mad at what other people think are silly things, but like I hate when I'm dating someone and they're like, hey, how's it going? I'm like, what? Do you have something to say or not? Like why are you interrupting my day with this? This is ridiculous. So yeah, it's really difficult. But I had the same point as I had the same experience as you, as where I knew enough to know that I'm setting a boundary and this person should just respect it. But I also of course felt, especially as a person conditioned female, right, that it's like, weird that I don't love that my boyfriend's texting me, wants to be around me all the time. It's weird that I get lost in things and don't need other people for long stretches of time.

Nichole [00:52:26] And I've had the same experience of like this, this just rage at being interrupted or even having, like, plans. Like, if I have to stop doing something to go meet people, I get so irrationally mad at them. And I'm like, these people just want me around. You know, I agreed to go to some event and now I'm, like, weirdly mad at people while I'm walking there because I had to stop doing the thing that I wanted to be doing. And yeah, I like, I have for a very long time, I have felt really deep shame about these instances of anger. And so figuring out that I was autistic and that it's coming, you know, it's just something that happens to us, is that's just how we're wired when we're touched when we don't want to be, or interrupted when we're really deep in something, like we just get mad.

Nichole [00:53:21] You know, it's helped me to start to make a lot of peace with that and to really have more pride in advocating for myself. Because when I would advocate for myself, it was often in a very apologetic way. You know, it would be like, I know, I'm sorry, but like I really need a night off. You know, I'm sorry, I know. And I would make jokes about how like-

Kye [00:53:46] I'm sorry I'm so weird!

Nichole [00:53:47] Yeah, I would make jokes about how I was like a little snowflake and I just couldn't do social things two nights in a row. But now, yeah, it's just been much more empowering to just be like this is how my fucking brain works and you know, I like my brain. I like how I am and I want to accommodate it because it's wonderful.

Kye [00:54:12] Mhmm. I was going to say, that kind of sounds like some almost like covert shame or something. I don't even know what that would be classified as but like, like that kind of like... I don't, like when I'm making jokes about how weird I am or something like, I think that that's just like another way of expressing shame.

Nichole [00:54:34] Or having branding built around how weird you are?

Kye [00:54:41] I had to think about that.

Nichole [00:54:45] And it's like my last show was called Bitchy Shitshow, right? Because it's like branding around look, sometimes I'm a bitch and I'm just going to get in front of it right, so I don't have to feel bad about it.

Kye [00:54:58] Ohhh, that's so interesting. I wondered about that because, it's so interesting because my reaction to that is I feel scared. Like when I saw your email that was like, hey I'm like part of this, like, podcast called Bitchy Shitshow. And instantly I was like, uhhh, I feel terrified. And it's interesting that that's my interpretation, that's you owning something that like...

Nichole [00:55:21] Yeah.

Kye [00:55:22] So like it makes sense now. And now I can understand my own like, my own reaction. Like that, that's my shit coming up.

Nichole [00:55:30] Did you think that I was going to be a bitch or did you think that I was going to require that you be a bitch? What made you afraid?

Kye [00:55:39] Maybe both. I think I just feel like because of where I come from, I feel, I don't know if this is safe to talk about and so I'm just going to dip my toe in. I feel very scared of anything related to, like "social justice warrior". And because I once was one and I shit all over people on the internet, people that I even knew. And so when I saw that, I kind of projected myself onto it. And some people that I knew from the past, some people that I had very explosive relationships with and I still have some like, unresolved feelings about. So I just projected all of that onto you.

Nichole [00:56:23] Well, and that's funny because the name was actually sort of a reaction to those types of people.

Kye [00:56:31] See, that makes sense now.

Nichole [00:56:33] Yeah, cause I also have issues with that. My first podcast was vegan branded, and we ended up basically leaving the vegan space because it was just like that. It was a mess. And I just got so disillusioned to movements and like SJWs spaces. Yeah, sorry, that's all just very funny that we both kind of branded things in a way to be like, you know, ha ha, I'm getting in front of it.

Kye [00:57:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny because I hadn't even really thought about the... Like I thought about the name that I picked, like Feelin Weird, but I never thought about how that's kind of making a joke about it. And now, now I have something to think about. But like yeah, when I, when I, definitely when I started the podcast it was like a lot of laughing, a lot of like laughing as a defense mechanism. And now it's like a little bit less because I think I like processed some of that stuff that I was laughing at. And it's interesting to notice how laughter was like a really big part of my coping in the world. And the first time that I went and saw my current therapist, she made a comment. She's like, I don't think I've ever had someone in here that's laughed as much as you. And simultaneously I would like cry and then I would laugh and then I would cry and then I would laugh. It was like, I was like my brain couldn't even handle like having someone hold space for my feelings. And anyway, yeah.

Nichole [00:58:11] Yeah, I relate to that a lot. I use a lot of dark humor. So I'm like either intellectualizing or I'm making jokes, you know? And yeah, I've had that experience in therapy where the person's like, you're very charming and I'm enjoying this quite a bit, however, you need to feel your actual feelings. Like I see what you're doing here. Yeah, and it is it makes me incredibly uncomfortable. And I think that was part of the experience I had with you was just this having someone see what I'm doing and calling it out and making space for me to step into it. I'm always so grateful for it but I'm still at a point where I kind of don't know what to do with it. So I get like, ooh.

Nichole [00:59:04] Which is so funny because I'm like you as well where I can see people doing stuff and will call it out. I mean I usually do it more maybe in like romantic partnerships or close friendships. But, you know, like I, I notice stuff and I'll call it out and people are like, whoa. But I'm not used to people doing it to me. Which is part of my exploration recently is realizing that I've had a lot of relationships in my life that I could manage and trying to step out of that.

Kye [00:59:42] What do you mean?

Nichole [00:59:44] I've had a lot of relationships in my life where the other person is a mess in some way, and I mean that with love. But yeah, I've had a lot of relationships where, like, I'm the insightful one. I'm always acting as therapist. I'm always acting as like, I can't tell you how many people have said like, oh, you're my rock, you know? And so in those situations, there's not a lot of attention paid to me, and the way that I'm managing the situation, right. The other person is just grateful that I'm doing it. So I've realized it's allowed me to really hide behind these coping mechanisms big time, you know.

Kye [01:00:28] I kind of wonder if the laughing thing, maybe you've thought about this or maybe you'll have some insight on it. I wonder if it like, it's like some form of masking?

Nichole [01:00:43] Oh, I'm sure it is.

Kye [01:00:44] Yeah. Some way that I learned how to kind of like, yeah, I can't actually formulate that into words, but I'm having a thought here and, I don't know, maybe it, maybe I'll follow it down the road someday.

Nichole [01:01:01] No, I can totally see that. And would love if you do have future thoughts about it, I would love to hear them. Because I know for me, a lot of my masking is like, what are people comfortable with and where are the lines? And that's one of those things I feel that I learned pretty early on. And I used to be really into stand up and really into like, I love comedy as an art. And I think I picked up pretty early on even as a kid because I was such a little shit. I was such a bitch when I was a kid. I have pictures where I'm just like, mean mugging the shit out of people. Like my parents would take pictures and I'm just like giving dirty looks to everyone as like a little toddler. And in a way where it would make my mom laugh, you know, because she'd be like, what the hell, how do you have such an attitude as a three year old?

Nichole [01:01:54] And I think I learned pretty early on that laughter is a way for people to like you. I like the intellectual challenge of it. Like, I think it can be a way to display that you're smart without seeming arrogant. Cause you can be clever, right? You can be witty. And that kind of can display a level of intelligence. I grew up, I have a lot of insecurity around people perceiving that I'm intelligent because of growing up in poverty. It was the way that I managed some social mobility was by being very smart to overcome the fact that, like, I was wearing clothes from Costco and just looked like shit. Basically had a cheap haircut and cheap shoes. And yeah, it was the way that I, that I was able to ingratiate myself with people and get some level of protection and access.

Nichole [01:02:48] So anyway, yes, I love humor. Me and my sisters, every time we do talk about stuff like we will talk about the darkest shit, like the worst stuff that happened to us when we were kids and we'll be like crying laughing the whole time. So, yeah, it's something I think about a lot because it is something I've kind of noticed in recent years that I do tend to... I struggle with it because part of it doesn't feel bad. Part of it feels like it's a healthy coping mechanism. But I, I definitely know that I take it too far sometimes or that I, like in therapy where it's an actual space made for me. I get very uncomfortable and I'll use humor in that situation to try to deflect from the fact that the focus is supposed to be me and my feelings.

Kye [01:03:38] Yeah. Which, OK, so what's coming to mind now is like... OK, you tell me how this lands. But the first thing that comes to mind is how you were saying that you like or you're drawn to people that, I think the word was "a mess"? Like don't have their shit together. It makes sense to me in my head why you would be drawn to those people, because then they take the center stage. You don't have to, you know, like none of your shit is brought into the open. It's all about them, the focus is on them.

Nichole [01:04:18] Yes.

Kye [01:04:19] How, does that make sense? And maybe that's something you thought, I don't know.

Nichole [01:04:22] Yep. No, 100 percent. And that's the funny part, is that, you know, I've joked on these platforms, there's like a long running joke that I'm a megalomaniac and that I'm like self-obsessed.

Kye [01:04:35] What is megalomaniac?

Nichole [01:04:37] It's like... Like Trump? I don't know. It's like someone who wants to run the world and thinks that they're God and yeah. So I always joke about my online empire and how I'm going to take over everything, which is funny because it's tiny, obviously, we can all see the numbers. Where was I going with that?

Kye [01:05:00] I don't think it's tiny but OK.

Nichole [01:05:02] I mean it's huge to me, anyway it's, I love it.

Kye [01:05:07] Was that a way of minimizing your impact on the world?

Nichole [01:05:11] My wild success that I've had? No, it's not. It's just funny. I think what's funny to me is that I've been involved in like web design and certain things for a long time so I have a very clear understanding of what is big on the internet versus what's big for me and my little niche corner here. So it's just, it's just my sense of humor. I think it's funny to brag about being, like, incredibly famous when I have like eight hundred subs on YouTube. But then at the same time, I do actually struggle sometimes with things related to fame.

Nichole [01:05:56] Like there are spaces where I go into, and this is actually all connected to what you just said so it's a total tangent. But having these platforms, my former co-host and I used to go do, we would get invited to go to conferences and conventions and speak publicly. And so we would meet fans and we would travel all over the world to do this stuff. And it was very weird to realize that, like, we actually were the center of attention in a lot of spaces and how incredibly uncomfortable I was with it. And I always thought that I would be. Like fame was never something I wanted. My long running joke is that I want to be a bestselling author under a pen name and have no one know who I am. Cause it's like, I want my work to get to a lot of people, but I don't actually want to be, like, famous, you know?

Kye [01:06:57] Yeah, yeah.

Nichole [01:07:00] And through that, I've kind of, so the joke is that, you know, I think for a lot of people, especially because now I can talk a lot and I can take up a lot of space if I need to. But I actually do not like being center of attention in any situation. And I very much have noticed that I'm drawn to people where, yes, they take up a lot of space in a lot of different ways. And then I get to choose what I'm allowing to have some focus and then kind of tightly controlling everything else.

Kye [01:07:42] Makes sense.

Nichole [01:07:42] Yeah, and it's kind of hard to again, I don't really want to have that dynamic anymore. I don't want to be in the role of the caretaker anymore. But the thought of being in a relationship where there is a lot of space for me still gives me that same really uncomfortable feeling that I got when I'm in a therapist's office and they're like, OK, but like, I'm here for you. You can really talk to me. Even sometimes the way my therapist would just ask, you know, how I feel about something, with just such attention, I would just get so rattled by it, you know?

Kye [01:08:22] Do you know what the feeling would be? Like just hypothetically, what would potentially come up if the therapist asks you, like, how do you feel? How do you feel about that?

Nichole [01:08:33] I think, and I wonder if this is part autism as well. Sometimes I would be confused because sometimes I would think I had told her how I felt.

Kye [01:08:42] Right.

Nichole [01:08:43] So I don't know if you have this experience in therapy, but sometimes I feel like they're digging for something more. And I was like, no, I, I just gave it to you. So I think that was part of the fear too, is that I would find myself falling into a role where then I was trying to figure out what she wanted me to say. Right?

Kye [01:09:04] Mhmm. Yup, I know that one.

Nichole [01:09:04] And that seems to be a pretty immediate response is to be like, what does this person want to hear? And to also feel like I need to have an answer fairly quickly. I find it torturous to be quiet and then to kind of be like, I don't really know. I find that very uncomfortable.

Kye [01:09:30] Wait, I lost you there. To be quiet and then I don't, what do you mean by that?

Nichole [01:09:35] So, like, if she would ask, how does this make you feel? And I'm thinking, I don't really know, I wouldn't necessarily be comfortable just sitting in silence and thinking. And then coming to like, I don't know. I would have this feeling like I need to give her something concrete. And that was really hard for me. I actually have a lot of anger at my former therapist. And one of the things I'm really angry about that ties into this is that, you know, after I realized I was autistic, because I had stopped seeing her for a while for mostly just busyness and money reasons. So I contacted her and I was like, you know, I think I'm autistic. Is that something that you could help me, I know I can't get a formal diagnosis, but can you help me kind of maybe unofficially diagnose me with it or whatever? And she's like, sure, we can go through the DSM together. And she's very radical, which I like about her. So she's like, I also just empower you, if you really feel like this is you, then like I empower you to diagnose yourself.

Nichole [01:10:57] But she asked me, she was like, how do you feel like this would change things for you? Like, why is this an important thing to you? And I got so fucking angry. And I'm still so angry. And of course, I didn't express it to her. I tried to come up with an answer I thought would make sense to her. But that was one of the things, like because of stuff like this, like when you ask me and I feel like I've already answered you and then I get really confused and then I feel like I need to perform, like that is an autistic kind of thing to do. And I want you to know that. I want you to understand how my brain works so when we're talking to each other, some of this stuff makes sense.

Nichole [01:11:39] I also had the vague sense that she thought that I had a personality disorder. And again, not to malign personality disorders, but I don't. And that was, that really colored the way that she would interpret things that I was telling her. Like I was trying to talk about a relationship that I now, in hindsight, do categorize and see as abusive. And for years I would try to talk to her about this relationship and she would always kind of have this, like, half smirk and be like, well, like maybe you just need to understand this other person's perspective, or maybe this person is just trying to do this or that to you. And I'm just like, no. And I remember just being like, listen, I'm mad. I was so frustrated cause I was like, really mad at this person all the time and I felt like a monster. I'm like, why am I so fucking mad all the time? But now I can see it is kind of like this autistic cry for help of like I need someone to validate that this situation is not OK. And then I can do something about it. Right. But I need, I need this person who is in a caretaking role to be like, yeah, this sounds a little off, let's talk about it.

Nichole [01:12:55] It would be things like, like I would feel like this person was stealing my identity in certain ways. And I would say that, and she would be like, well, it sounds like they need, you know, like you have a really good sense of self and they don't so, like, isn't that just flattering? But the thing is, is like it wasn't even about the thing that the person was doing. It was about the fact that they were making me not feel safe. And I couldn't understand why they were making me not feel safe so I was pointing at stuff that seemed weird. And what I wanted was for someone to say, yeah, you know, like it's OK for you to not feel safe. It's OK, this this does sound a little off. Like, your instincts are good, it's OK for you to not feel OK here. And that's not what happened.

Nichole [01:13:50] So, yeah, I just got so angry looking back on all of this stuff and realizing like, I was an autistic person and we're all just inherently vulnerable. Right, we just are. We're magical, but we're also very vulnerable because we're always trying to navigate the world. We're always putting ourselves in this position of being broken in some way or not understanding the rules or not masking properly. That's the perspective we come from. And I just feel like if I'm going to go to someone to get help, that person's position has to be counter to that, right? Don't help me mask more. That's not what I need. I need you to help me to stop masking. And just looking back on stuff, that's what I feel, is that she was kind of like, it was almost like she thought that I needed help developing empathy and like more understanding of where other people are coming from. And it was like what I needed was more boundaries and self-protection and self-advocacy. Not, oh yes, let me pour myself more into someone else's experience. I don't even know why I went off on that, but I'm mad about it.

Kye [01:15:06] Yeah, I can tell, yeah.

Nichole [01:15:07] Yeah, and it's just-

Kye [01:15:11] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Tell me if you feel comfortable with this. What does the anger feel like? And don't get into the story, just what does it feel like in your body?

Nichole [01:15:23] It makes me feel very, like, physically violent.

Kye [01:15:29] Like, where?

Nichole [01:15:29] It feels, like feels like it... That's a good question. It's usually like a torso through my arms kind of thing. It feels like I need to like do something. And I think that's a big reason why I shy away from my anger because it always expresses itself very physically. I don't hurt people, but I've always thought like maybe I could or would, and that scares me. I even had a thing last night where my keyboard was being weird and I just ended up like smashing it on the table and just yelling. And it was like, I couldn't, I just get this full body rage and it just comes out of me and I'll either yell or I'll throw something. And I'm very careful to not do it to or around other people because I don't want them to be scared. But like, that's what it feels like. And when I think about her, I just feel like... I just want her to, like, understand how mad I am, you know? I don't want her to be ashamed necessarily, but I just need her to understand, like, how poorly she met my needs.

Kye [01:16:42] The therapist, you mean?

Nichole [01:16:42] I'm like, why? Yeah. I thought about, like, writing her a letter and probably not sending it, but I feel like it's just been bothering me and I feel like it's something I have to get out. Because I can see now it was, it was a cry for help. It was like, hey, things don't feel right but I'm in my default of blaming myself. You know? But like, you're someone maybe you could validate for me that this is OK for it to not feel right and that maybe some of this behavior is weird, you know? And instead, it was a confirmation that my behavior and my perspective is weird. Which is not helpful.

Kye [01:17:24] Yeah. Yeah it sounds like... It sounds like you're getting more of what you didn't need when you're going to someone for something different. And like, I don't know if you noticed my reaction when, I can't remember what you said, but her - is it, was it she? The therapist?

Nichole [01:17:44] Mhmm, yeah.

Kye [01:17:45] When she was explaining the other person's perspective, to me I'm just like, what?! You're a fucking therapist. You get paid to do this? I have not, I don't do that. And I know I would not do that. That's a fucking wrong thing to say. It's not about the other person. I feel like that has fucking nothing to do with it. If I'm in the therapist's office, it's about my feelings, my experience, helping me process the shit that I haven't been able to process. And if she's like, well, you haven't thought about the other person's perspective. What the fuck. Like, I could have talked to my mom and she would have told me that. And then I would have been like, oh great, yeah I'm fucking stupid again.

Kye [01:18:33] But like, no. OK, so, so, so this is why I love my therapist, because she's like, she would never do that to me. It's always about like, and how does that feel? And if I say like, I don't want to talk about it, she'll be like, OK, cool. All right, what do you want, what do you need? And so it's like, I think there are so many bad therapists out there and I feel so fucking mad about it. I feel it, I feel it.

Nichole [01:18:59] Yes. So what does yours feel like?

Kye [01:19:01] It's like, it's like, it's more like I just want to yell and like punch a pillow. And when you're talking about the violent thing, like I remember this period where I was living in a trailer and I was fixing it up and I went through this period where I was just feeling so angry. Like I try to fix something and I wouldn't be able to do it and this rage would come over me. And I like, at times I would just scream and I'd be like in the middle of the woods in this trailer and I'd just be screaming because I couldn't, like, get the battery to work and I was like a fucking child. But like, that was, that was the first step towards learning how to process my anger. And it's still very, very, very, very hard for me. But I'm more often than not, more often than not I'll like, scream into a pillow. And that's how I process it. And like, when I actually fully process it, I feel so much more like, ahhh, as opposed to like, bluuhh, or like repressed and like stuck.

Kye [01:20:12] And I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions. Like even when I was kind of entering into that emotional processing group or my therapist, I was still kind of like, I don't know if, like, processing anger is actually like helpful or safe. I was kind of like unsure about that. And now I'm like, fuck that. Like, if you gotta scream into a pillow, scream into a pillow. If you've got to punch a thing, punch a thing. It's about like processing the feelings in my body. It's about like letting it out and not just repressing it, because I think that the problem is that eventually it does come out and it comes out in really destructive, violent ways and it often hurts other people or things as opposed to an inanimate object like a pillow in a safe space where no one else is getting hurt.

Nichole [01:20:57] Yeah. Yeah and I think I internalize a lot of it, a lot of my stuff and I do hurt myself when I don't let it out. You know, I found so many different ways to, like, hurt myself. And I have a lot of rage around being clumsy, I'm very clumsy, which I have heard can be an autistic thing as well. And it's something that I've been shamed for my whole life by everyone. And so yeah, I just, I'll like, stub my toe on something and I'll just like, I'll just have this rage that overtakes me. And it's like I want to burn the house down cause I stubbed my toe, you know? And it's, I think I do, I can see what you're saying because I do think a big part of it is having these big feelings. Ever since, I remember being a little kid and just having really big feelings and knowing that those feelings were unsafe in one way or another.

Nichole [01:22:06] And I think for me, a lot of that like escapes a little bit as just this rage. This just rage that like something so silly and like, yeah, stubbing my toe or I drop stuff all the time. I get so mad when I drop things, you know, like I'm a terrible person. I have to buy these industrial cases for my phone because I'll drop my phone and break it. And yeah, I just, I just get so enraged and I think so much of it is just tied to this feeling of like being a fuckup and being clumsy and having people make fun of me. And it's like I don't know why my body's this way, but it just is and it always has been my whole life. And, you know, just so many things like I would hurt myself as a kid being clumsy and instead of being cared for by my parents, it would be like they're just mad at me because I'm hurt and now that's like bothering them.

Nichole [01:23:04] Yeah. And so, yeah, I can see that. I mean, I think it's like what happens to men and people conditioned as men, right? Like you're taught that such a wide range of your feelings are not acceptable, that like the rage is all you can kind of access. And I've always struggled with that as someone like conditioned female that, and there's some evidence of this with like autism and stuff, too, that like female autistic brains map similarly to like neurotypical brains of men the same age, or male brains the same age. And I've just always had this, this rage that like... So much of what I experience in anger is so physical and it's just, I was taught that that was not like an acceptable thing for me to feel or express, you know? Because girls aren't supposed to do that. Girls aren't supposed to have full body fucking rage where it's like I literally could burn this house down right now or break things or just yell. You know, I could just scream right now.

Nichole [01:24:23] Yeah, so I think it's just a lot of conditioning early on for a lot of people that you learn like these things aren't safe. And I think for a lot of us, like anger is the first emotion that you can start entering into to start opening that door and processing stuff. But it's hard because it's really scary, I think, to get through it. And I know for me the thought of like allowing someone to see me like that is incredibly frightening. I would be very ashamed if someone saw me like in that way. I had a partner for seven years once and we had a really intense, very unhealthy relationship. And he was very controlling and dominating in the relationship. And I remember one time in seven years I yelled at him, like actually screamed and he just stopped dead in his tracks. And he was just like, shaken to his core, because that's how much I never, even though we were super dysfunctional, we would fight all the time. Like, that's how much I was always tightly controlling myself. That for me to just raise my voice like, you know, just like knocked him over because it just was something I had never done in that huge length of time. Because I'm scared of it, you know? It feels so overwhelming in the moment that it feels like if I open it, it's just never going to end and it's going to escalate. But yeah.

Kye [01:26:03] That's it. That's totally it. It's like the fear, the fear or the story that if I let this out even a little bit, it'll never end. And that's like the story that I've had to kind of gently and compassionately silence as I continue processing. The more that I process the stuff, the more that the story gets a little bit smaller. That like, oh, if I let the sadness out or the sorrow, this grief, this anger, this fear, it'll never end. And I think that that story... I'm not totally sure where it comes from, and I'm not a scientist or a psychologist, but I'm sure it comes from childhood and it's some kind of adaptive mechanism. But it's just simply not true. Like the science shows - again, not a scientist or a psychologist, but the science shows that when emotions are processed, they don't multiply. It doesn't get bigger. It doesn't get like unstoppable. It actually, like my body regulates itself. I come back into like a homeostasis state, something where I'm like feeling calm.

Kye [01:27:16] Like, I say this with like belief in it because I've felt it and I've experienced it. When I process my anger, especially in connection with my partner, because she feels safe to be around it. If someone witnesses my anger and I fully move through it, the other side of that is like calm and even joy sometimes. Even happy. It just it's simply not true that it will never end, even though in the moment the story is that it's true and it'll never end. I know what that feels like because it's, and I still come to that. It's not like I don't think that anymore, I don't feel that. That story is still true. And I block my sadness and I block my anger because the story is true. But it's not.

Nichole [01:28:07] Yeah. Yeah, and I think I have this subconscious belief that, to outwardly actively be angry with someone is inherently a destructive action. Right, but the few times that I've let it come through a bit, it actually has for the most part been pretty healing and connecting. Not in all cases, but I can see that in the times that it hasn't been, it's also been because the dynamic was really dysfunctional, not because I was in the wrong for that. And you know, not to get into it too much, but this does very much connect with the experience that I just went through of severing a relationship and being really... I still haven't been able to land on exactly what the right word is. I'm going to say hurt. I don't know if that's quite correct, but being quite hurt that even in that moment of being like I have had enough, I have to go, I can't do this anymore. I was so controlled and so kind. And the response to that was kind of like, well, fuck you die. You know what I mean?

Nichole [01:29:44] I just, it just feels really hard. And my point to that is that now looking back, I'm like, you know, I honestly, truly, deeply wish I had been able to just spin around one time and be like, fuck you. Fuck you and what you're doing right now. This sucks, you're treating me like shit right now. And I'm going to leave and we'll talk about this later. But fuck you for this, you know? And like, I just never, everything was always just so, like, intellectualized and so like, well, you know, it just was kind of uncomfortable for me because of X, Y, Z. And like, I just would really appreciate it if in the future you could think about this. And then it would happen again and it would happen again, it would happen again. And I was put in so many situations where I was made to feel like shit or feel unsafe. And my point is like I did this for so many years and then in the end I'm like, OK, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I'm sorry, like I need to change the dynamics here. And the response is like, I'm going to burn everything you care about to the ground.

Nichole [01:30:53] And I'm like, you know what, why didn't I ever just lose my shit? Why didn't I get to be the one to be like, no, fuck you? Why didn't I give this, you know, like, whether it would have changed things or not, just the fact that you can try so hard and it's not going to matter. If that person's not taking care of you in the moment, they're not going to take care of you in the break either. Right? But that's what I thought is like, oh I've been so respectful and so careful and so we'll be respectful and careful of each other. And it's like, that's not how other people work. And now, yeah, now I'm just thinking about how many times I was just so mad and I was just holding it down and being like so controlled. And I'm like, I wish I had just been like, this fucking sucks, I'm out of here. Fuck you for this. The end. So.

Kye [01:31:53] Can I share my thoughts with you on that?

Nichole [01:31:55] Yeah, please do.

Kye [01:31:58] First of all, I want to clarify, there's a story running in my head right now that's like someone is listening to this and because they don't know the full context of what I'm talking about, they'll think that I'm promoting this idea of just like raging out whenever I feel mad. And that's not at all what I'm suggesting. And in fact, I think that's violent and destructive and I don't promote that. What I'm talking about is like processing it by myself or with someone that feels safe to do so, like with their consent, and getting into the feelings and not like, not the story. Not what I think is happening, just like exactly what's happening in my body. And I just want to clarify that because I like, I really, like to me, nonviolent communication is very important to me.

Kye [01:32:48] And so what I'm hearing you say or what I'm interpreting is that your needs were not being met along the way. And you pushed your feelings down, you pushed your needs down. And from like what I said earlier is that like those things come back up. And often when they come back, it's pretty destructive. So it would appear to me that, that what happened was you were pushing your needs down, you were pushing your feelings down, and eventually you exploded. And like, naturally, that is what happens. And because, like-

Nichole [01:33:27] I didn't explode. That's what I'm saying is I didn't explode. I always tightly controlled everything, and then the other person exploded. And I'm not saying like I would have wanted, because I agree with what you're saying. Like, I don't think it's great to just hulk out on people, you know, and just think that that's like a healthy way to have an interaction. I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, I never just showed that I was angry. I never just allowed it to be known that I was angry. And even until the very end, I controlled and was like, I'm trying to not make you feel bad. I'm trying to protect your feelings in this situation.

Nichole [01:34:14] And now looking back, it's like it should have been, I should have just been like, hey, like I'm pissed off about this, this was shitty. You know? And we can talk about it next time we talk. But like, I was put in a lot of situations, and it ties into understanding that I'm autistic now too. I was put into a lot of situations that were just not safe or OK for me. And I would calmly advocate for myself, and advocate for myself, and advocate for myself, and still find the same things happening over and over. And I just wish one of those times I had just been like, this is shitty and I'm mad and I'm leaving, you know? But that felt scary and unsafe to me and I felt like the other person couldn't handle it. And they probably couldn't have, but they couldn't handle anything that I did.

Nichole [01:35:06] And I think that was my realization, you know, in finally getting out of it is just that I have been swallowing oceans of anger for years to protect this person. And I just even in the final moment, was not protected back. I just, all of it just ended up being bad energy in my body. It came out as chronic illness and chronic anger, chronic fatigue. You know, I just had so many repercussions from that. And I'm like, really? In all the time, like, why did I feel that I couldn't just turn around and be like, you're being shitty right now and this is not OK. And I'm mad. I'm mad about it and I'm going to let you see that I'm mad. I'm not just going to intellectually two weeks from now safely boil this down to something that's like very neutral, which is what I would do. I would still advocate for myself, but I would make it as non-confrontational as possible.

Nichole [01:36:07] And I wish I confronted. Because I've had times in my life where someone's like, oh, that hurt my feelings, that was kind of shitty. And you're like, oh, well, I don't want to be shitty to you, you know? And you're like, sorry about that. And it's not a bad thing to, like, let people see that you're angry. But I agree with you, it's different than taking your anger out on people or exploding on people. I think those are different things. But I operate, like I can confront people in my life but even that is done as neutrally and like tepidly as possible. And I really don't ever let someone see me actively be hurt and angry by what they did. How does that feel for you?

Kye [01:36:58] Well, I can't tell if I disagree with what you're saying or if maybe we're saying the same thing and it's just I'm not interpreting it as that. So, yeah, I'm just like, I'm listening to you and I'm trying to follow and... I guess, OK so like I said, I like, like nonviolent communication is very important to me. And I think that it makes sense to me because of just the way that my brain works and because of the trauma that I've experienced. I feel really scared of people showing their anger, especially men. Like I've been really traumatized by men's anger. And for a long period of time, I, I didn't even have any male friends. I wouldn't even associate with people that I perceived as male or, I just felt too scared. And so I guess I'm coming from a perspective where I feel really scared of people's anger. And so I think that maybe my trauma is getting wrapped up in your story. And maybe I'm not totally understanding what you're saying.

Kye [01:38:13] But I feel... Like I really believe that nonviolent communication works and it's effective and I get my needs met and it helps me meet someone in the middle so that we both understand. And I think that it gets a really bad rap, as if it's like passive and I'll never get my needs met, and I'm not actually, like, fully being authentic. And I think that what gets messy is when I bring my story into my feelings where, like, something happened... And sometimes the data of what happened isn't really that important, or it's steeped in my judgments or my, you know, my story, my trauma that I brought into it. And so it's not actually the facts of what happened. And maybe I'm perceiving something that you said differently than what you meant it, or the way that it's objectively understood, even though I question whether objectively even exists. And so what I'm trying to get at, I guess, is that... And now I'm feeling scared because I know that there's, I'm like aware that there's like other people listening right now.

Nichole [01:39:28] Mhmm. I know. Don't worry about it.

Kye [01:39:29] And I'm like really trying to focus on my conversation with you but I'm also like, oh yeah, right, there are like other people. I think that I feel really scared of the idea of, like, "you made me feel this way," something like that. And I feel really scared of "that was shitty." And I think that actually those can exist and that doesn't mean that they're bad. I think I just feel scared of them and I'm not totally sure how effective they are sometimes in conflict mediation. And so I guess what, I don't want to push my beliefs on you, but I'm wondering how this would land if, because I think it's really, really, really important to show up authentically. And it's very important for me to tell you exactly what I need and how I'm feeling potentially if you're like, if I think that it's going to help.

Kye [01:40:23] But I think ultimately the goal is connection, right? Like, so if my goal is connection, how can I communicate what I need and how I feel in a way that you are going to understand it? Because you are probably understanding it through your own lens, which is steeped in trauma and your past experiences. So like, how can I communicate that I feel hurt and I potentially feel mad or I feel sad or scared, but I'm not also putting that on you so that you're going to feel threatened and you're going to feel shame and you're going to feel defensive? Does that make sense or?

Nichole [01:41:04] Yeah, it does. I mean, I don't disagree. I also am a big fan of nonviolent communication. And I do think that communicating clearly and neutrally when you can is a good thing. I do disagree I guess, if I'm understanding what you're saying, that there's never space for someone to be like, I'm just fucking mad right now. And what I'm saying is I never allowed myself to ever just be, even just to say the words, not like break something and storm out. But I'm saying, like, I never even allowed myself to just say I'm fucking mad right now.

Kye [01:41:50] Right.

Nichole [01:41:51] Especially, also specifically I'm talking about things that were, say, ableist, that put me in dangerous situations for my health and that I had communicated about several times in a very neutral, nonviolent kind of way. I never allowed myself to just be like, I've talked to you about this, this is shitty, I'm mad, I'm leaving. Like, I would stay in those situations because I didn't want to be rude by leaving, you know? Instead of being like, I'm mad, I'm going to leave. And still making space to say, like, I will talk to you about this tomorrow. Like, we can talk about this. But I need you to know right now I'm feeling anger in my body and I'm going to go because this is not an OK or safe situation for me. I never even allowed myself that. And now... I guess I'm saying too, I don't think it's bad to be careful with people, but I have been so incredibly careful with people to my own detriment who are not careful at all with me. And I think that's just, I'm not saying being less careful with them is necessarily the answer, but I think that's just part of the anger that I'm processing right now is to take so much care and consideration for other people who at every step of the way just are not careful with me whatsoever.

Kye [01:43:28] Yeah, I hear you.

Nichole [01:43:28] Yeah. Well.

Kye [01:43:34] What's going on right now? Something's there, and I'm trying to figure it out.

Nichole [01:43:38] Yeah. Well, I'm a little uncomfortable because I feel like we're at time. And I want to be respectful of that but I also feel like this is kind of a weird place to leave it.

Kye [01:43:48] It sure is.

Nichole [01:43:52] And maybe we can just embrace it and be weird?

Kye [01:44:01] So unresolved.

Nichole [01:44:01] But yeah, I'm not quite sure how much longer it would take to resolve it or if there is even a resolution or like what else to kind of move to to close it up. So yeah, I'm in a bit of a hostess impasse.

Kye [01:44:13] Do you want my input or do you want to just make the decision as the hostess?

Nichole [01:44:18] No, I'd love your input. This is a thing we're creating together. We're partners in this, yeah. What's your thought?

Kye [01:44:25] OK. I mean, my want is to try and resolve it and maybe we could do so, you know, quicker than it might seem. Like, our last conversation was two hours and forty five minutes I think. I don't want to go that long, but I think that I fully believe that I can understand what you're saying. And I think that we can both feel like we've been heard. And I think that that would probably, I mean, sure, it'd be interesting to leave it at that and like, the listener would be like, oh no, like what's going to happen? But, you know, firstly, I'm not like into that kind of like, clickbait bullshit. So I, this is, you know, I think this is like an example of like how two people who might disagree can also still connect and still understand each other. I fully believe in that. And if anything, it would just be like a good practice for me to listen, because sometimes I'm not very good at listening.

Nichole [01:45:31] Yeah. Yeah, and I... Because I hear what you're saying. And of course, as someone who is always incredibly concerned with other people's well-being and safety, having a friend like you, I wouldn't want to trigger something with you by displaying anger. However, I guess my pushback to you would be, what are we saying to people if we're saying you can never be angry, you can never be visibly or perceptibly angry? And I think that that is my struggle, is I feel like my entire life I've never been able to just be angry. Maybe it's the Italian American in me, I don't know. I'm a spicy person and I've had partnerships where I've been able to be around someone who understands the difference between me being rageful and me just being angry.

Nichole [01:46:38] You know, I've had people that I could be like, hey, knock that off. Like, that sucks. And they laugh and we laugh and like, it's fine. Because they're like, oh, it's like to them it's almost a safe feeling because it's like I'm just being very authentic in that moment. Kind of I, sometimes I get that way, it's sort of how you describe feeling when you're touched, when you don't want to be. Right, where it's just this very authentic reaction of like, no. I'll get that way sometimes when someone talks to me a certain way, I'll be like, don't talk to me that way. And I've had people where they can understand that I'm not, like, mad and that that's not an unsafe thing. It's more just like I'm just having a very authentic reaction and that I feel safe enough with them to be that way. And we understand each other.

Nichole [01:47:28] I'm not saying that would work with everyone. But I just know that when I've been in situations like that, I have felt, it just feels so much healthier and it feels like there's space to actually do that nonviolent communication and that real deep work and that connecting, because I know that I'm actually being accepted in all of my authentic emotional states. Versus someone who can't ever handle even a drop of my anger. Then that puts me in the role that I am inclined to go into. Oh, I'm saying, like I put myself in that role that I'm inclined to go in, which is managing everyone's feelings all the time, and managing my own feelings on their behalf all the time.

Kye [01:48:17] Yeah.

Nichole [01:48:17] So that's, you know, I'm not trying to persuade you, but that's just my perception of that. Is that I do feel that it can be OK to just be angry sometimes and let that show and not need to have this prepared, planned out, constructive conversation. But I do think there's definitely a line between that and just like exploding with rage all over somebody. I do not think that that's... It happens, we're human, it happens, but it's not a good thing to do, right?

Kye [01:48:53] Yeah.

Nichole [01:48:54] Yeah, I do agree with that.

Kye [01:48:57] I think that what I'm hearing is I think actually we're strangely enough, saying the same thing. I think we're just...

Nichole [01:49:06] Phrasing it differently.

Kye [01:49:08] Yeah, sorry I'm not going to speak for you. I was misinterpreting what you were saying.

Nichole [01:49:14] Gotchya.

Kye [01:49:14] And because for me, language is so fucking important. Like, I get, like, I feel big reactions when people say things a certain way and it's a big trigger for me so I will fight someone on language. And I can see how that gets in, like that just came in between us because I was like, no, I like, I don't agree with that. And it's not, but the problem is, is because I was perceiving you were saying something that you weren't. Because I didn't totally understand what you were saying. I was projecting something else onto what I heard. Misunderstanding it. And then I was believing that you were saying something different. And I think that you were believing that I was saying something different. And then we were like... There was some tension there, I picked up on. And then I was like feeling like, shit what did I just do? And I think that, like, actually this is a really cool moment. And it's like one of my favorite moments, which is like navigating conflict with someone, especially like someone that I don't really know because I think, I fully believe it's possible.

Kye [01:50:30] So what, yeah, what I'm hearing is that, for you, it's really important for you to be, and I'm going to use my own words here, and you can tell me if that's what you meant. Is for you to be like authentic in like what you're feeling. That you need to be, like, honest with people and that when you feel angry, sometimes you need to let them know that. And that like, a good friend should be able to, like, hold space for that or at least like hear you in that and that that's important for a relationship. Is that true or am I off?

Nichole [01:50:59] Yeah, no, that's exactly it. And I think we could also summarize it by, like, I guess what I'm getting out is I want to be able to stop masking, but I don't, I do think a lot of it is autistic masking, but I do think a lot of it is also trauma response and, you know, childhood stuff. It's all a bit mixed together. But I think that kind of general idea of, yeah, I want to be able to have an emotion and express it rather than have an emotion, quarantine it, analyze it, come up with something productive and then, you know.

Nichole [01:51:37] And not to say that process isn't ever a good way to go about it. Like, it's not necessarily wrong to sit with your feelings before you act on them. That can be also really healthy and helpful. But if I look back, I've had a lifetime of that is the only way I allow myself to do anything. And yeah, I just, I would like to be in relationships where I can be a little grumpy and just be like, hey, you crossed a boundary, you know, like that wasn't cool. Or like, we've talked about this before and now I'm kind of mad I have to talk to you about it again, and have that be OK. And like, I'm very good at making space for other people's anger, too. Maybe a little too good, one could say. But, yeah, to just develop that thing.

Nichole [01:52:31] Because something I had with a previous friend is that there was a lot of processing all the time, but not a lot of progress, you know? So we were very good at nonviolent communication. We were very good at talking about stuff all the time. But like nothing actually ever changed for me. And sometimes I think people need to see that you're just having, like, a real... that you're a person, you know? That you're a squishy, vulnerable person who's asking for help or who's asking to be seen. And I think sometimes a little sadness or a little anger that isn't controlled and, you know, toned down, can help with that. To be like, oh shit.

Nichole [01:53:17] Because I've had that too. Occasionally, like, very rarely in my life, but maybe I'll just burst into tears in the middle of a conversation. And it's not, you know, I don't tend to burst into tears ever in front of other people. And that can also be a moment where they're like, oh, fuck, like you're human, I forgot. You're also very vulnerable. So, yeah, I guess if I could say it in a more broad sense, that is what I'm seeking. Is to be able to be human and to have, to express the emotions as I'm having them. Yeah, in a way that hasn't been so sanitized. Yeah, so how are we feeling now? I'm feeling good. How are you feeling?

Kye [01:54:17] I feel challenged. I feel scared. I feel calm and tired.

Nichole [01:54:31] Yeah, live steaming is very tiring.

Kye [01:54:36] Well, to be fair, I felt like exhausted before I even came in here, so.

Nichole [01:54:43] Me too.

Kye [01:54:43] Yeah, I just, I like, I'm fully into wrapping up. I just wanted to say that I don't believe that people should repress their anger. I don't think it's healthy. I like, yeah, I think like I pretty much agree with everything that you're saying. I think that from what I understand, I think that we're actually agreeing with each other. I think that maybe we might just be using different language or maybe I'm hung up on something. But I really do not believe... Like I'm not trying to, like I feel scared in a space like this where I'm like someone will hear what I say and will kind of misinterpret it and it's not... I feel scared of being misinterpreted or like, and because like sometimes I just have a hard time, like getting what's inside out onto the paper or into your ears. And then because there's like so much shame that exists in my body, then I'll just like beat the shit out of myself and I'll start to feel anxious and like, overthink what I said. I think at the core of what I'm trying to say or like what my message is, is that like processing my emotions, processing your emotions, processing emotions is very, very, very important to me. Like repressing them is so, so damaging to myself, to you, to like everyone. Everyone. And yeah, that's all.

Nichole [01:56:17] Yeah. Yeah and I agree with, I mean, I'm, I feel fine. I feel like yeah there was maybe a little misunderstanding but I don't disagree with the points that you were making on your side. So yeah, I think we were saying similar things but using different language. And fortunately the audience around here is used to nuance. We promote that heavily.

Kye [01:56:45] What does that mean?

Nichole [01:56:45] Just meaning like we do a lot of work to not jump to conclusions, to try to really hear what someone's saying. You know, to just not take the Twitter approach to things where it's like one hundred and forty characters and that's it, right? You and I just had a whole big conversation, I don't think anyone's going to be drawing the wrong conclusions from what you said. I'm trying to be reassuring, I feel like I'm not doing a good job at that.

Kye [01:57:16] Oh yeah, no, I think that because you were giving me reassurance that I didn't ask for then I just interpreted it as like, oh I did fuck up.

Nichole [01:57:25] No, no.

Kye [01:57:25] OK. All right. Yep, feeling weird.

Nichole [01:57:32] So, yeah. With that we'll close out Feelin Weird. So Kye, where can people find you?

Kye [01:57:42] Oh I just deleted all of my podcast so you can't. Like good luck.

Nichole [01:57:50] I'm a ghost.

Kye [01:57:50] I quit.

Nichole [01:57:52] Yeah, I'm fucking out of here.

Kye [01:57:54] Yeah. Is this the part where I have to promote?

Nichole [01:57:58] I mean if you want to. I'll have links to everything of yours in the show notes so people can find you there. Feelin Weird. Do you have any other projects besides Feelin Weird?

Kye [01:58:09] I mean, yeah, of course, I have a lot of things, but yeah, I can't think about what they are right now. Feelin Weird. I don't... why is this so hard to do? If you want to listen out there, you out there in the - I'm going to go back to my cat. If you want to listen, um yeah, Feelin Weird, it's just like me, me and another person every episode talking about things that, generally like the idea is that like something that, you know, you have never said out loud or something that you felt shame about or something that you haven't, you thought you couldn't talk about. And the idea is that, you know, I talk to you and I listen and we have some kind of connection. And the person listening in the podcast has some kind of connection.

Kye [01:59:03] Like a lot, like I get messages all the time from people that are like, wow, I never knew someone else like, experienced that. To me, that's really cool because like I grew up thinking I was fucking weird and crazy and like I had to keep everything inside. So this is me actively reaching into the world and being like, fuck that, you can talk about it, I can talk about it. Like, let's talk about it, because I hate small talk. I don't know how to do it. Or, I mean, I can fake it, but it's like such a, it's so exhausting. So like this is the opposite. Like Feelin Weird to me is the opposite of small talk. And you can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts, like Spotify, Apple podcast, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I don't know what else I would say to that. Just like, I guess go listen to the episode that I just posted with Nic and see how you feel about that one. If you like that then go for more. There's lots of good ones. Yeah.

Nichole [02:00:05] Yeah. There's really, really every episode I've listened to has been amazing and I was very honored to be part of it. So yeah, I think if you like this show, you'll love that show, go give it a shot. And yeah, I just wanna say thank you Kye, for being here today and feeling weird in my pink spot. Maybe the most awkward thing I've ever said.

Kye [02:00:33] My camera is so shitty right now, but I'm wearing a pink shirt and my pink glasses.

Nichole [02:00:37] Aww. We love being on theme around here. We love a good costume.

Kye [02:00:45] Pink is my favorite color.

Nichole [02:00:46] Pink is a great color. It's the best color. It's the queerest color in my opinion. It's like a power color.

Kye [02:00:52] Well, except for that my partner hates pink because she was raised female and she doesn't like it because of that. But I was raised to love blue and fuck that shit.

Nichole [02:01:01] Yeah. Yeah, it was an interesting reclamation of my stuff that I came out as genderqueer and was also able to feel OK with loving pink so much. That was like really empowering for me to be like, you know what, I can still love pink and be gender queer.

Kye [02:01:25] Yeah.

Nichole [02:01:25] Yeah.

Kye [02:01:26] Hell yeah.

Nichole [02:01:27] Yeah.

Kye [02:01:28] Because it's like, it's just a color.

Nichole [02:01:30] It's just a color.

Kye [02:01:31] It's just all the shit that I've put on top of it because of bleh.

Nichole [02:01:34] Exactly. Yeah.

Kye [02:01:35] I'm trying to like reclaim blue because I've really hated blue for a long time because of the same. I'm starting to like it, yeah.

Nichole [02:01:44] Yeah, exactly. Good. Look at us. Breaking gender barriers. All right. Are you going to stick around for the after party or are you going to...

Kye [02:01:53] Am I invited? Like I have kind of, are we still friends?

Nichole [02:01:58] Yes!

Kye [02:01:59] OK.

Nichole [02:01:59] We're absolutely friends. You know, it's funny too, that I realized about being autistic is that autistic people often disagree in the way that we just did. And most autistic people don't care. They're just like, they're very blunt with each other and it's fine. And I'm not like that, so I'm trying to, you know, I'm just trying to appreciate that about my community and be more comfortable with it.

Kye [02:02:25] Mm. Yeah, I feel like terrified that people don't like me and like I want everyone to like me. I'm saying that like not in a way that like I think that's great. I think there's like all sorts of problems with that. But like I feel very scared if I have like done something wrong and I'll just get hung up on it. And so, you know, this is a moment where I'm feeling, like, really scared and I'm feeling like a little bit of shame. And so it's like very fitting that it would end on shame, because like yeah, I mean, I could lie, but I can't lie. I can't be like, oh yeah, thank you so much for having me, see ya! Like I feel like, yeah, I feel like scared and shameful and like, that doesn't mean that you have to like take that on. That's not your responsibility, those are my feelings, I can process them. But it's like that's where I'm at right now and it sucks. But it's also like, well I'm here.

Nichole [02:03:19] Well, I would say that if you have the spoons you should come party with us, because a lot of times when I'm feeling anxious and scared after an episode, the after party makes me feel really good. So no presh.

Kye [02:03:35] No, no, I'll join, yeah for sure.

Nichole [02:03:36] We are a fully consensual show. All right.

Kye [02:03:36] I haven't been to a party in years.

Nichole [02:03:42] Hello. As promised, this is editing Nic from the future... Or the past? Who knows? So I had neglected to be a good marketing person. This will come as a surprise to no one. But I did want to promote that my next guest is Claire, a.k.a. Professor Flowers. And we're going to be talking about the need for community, particularly specifically a community that shares the same identity as you. So for those of you who were Bitchy Shitshow followers, Claire had come on and talked to us about whiteness and dismantling whiteness. We had a great time with her. I'm really, really excited to work with Claire again. She's someone that I just genuinely enjoy as a human being. I really love the work that she does. I feel very comfortable with her, so I'm really excited about this episode.

Nichole [02:04:42] As always, you can just look forward to listening to the podcast when it comes out, or if you would care to join us, we will be live streaming on YouTube on, double checking the date now, December 13th at 12:00 p.m. Pacific Time. So you can join us there if you'd like. But yeah, I just wanted to let you know that. And then also very exciting is I decided on my December 27th episode, that's when it will be recorded on the live stream and then posted here after that, I want to do a little kind of end of the year, New Year sort of celebration. I'm going to dress up for the live stream. I'm going to have a lot of sparkly things on, I'll have something fun to drink. And I just wanted to invite everyone to come hang out with me. I'm not sure exactly what I'll be talking about yet, but I do know that I'm planning to do something to thank everybody who contributed to the fundraiser to help with my housing costs and also just to thank all the patrons that have come in since I started Pynk Spots.

Nichole [02:05:58] So if you would like to contribute to that, what I would love most of all is to hear from all of you things that you would like me to talk about on that episode. I could answer advice questions especially related to the holidays. I know the holidays will largely be over at that point, but maybe some of you are still processing things that happened around the holidays. Anything you want to talk about regarding the New Year, 2021. Just really anything at all. Any questions you have for me personally. I just would like this to be a big celebration of community and of new beginnings and also with awareness of how difficult the last year has been and how difficult the next year likely is to still be.

Nichole [02:06:48] So yeah, I just wanted to put that call out there. Please let me know if you have any ideas for that episode, anything you'd like to hear. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm really excited to hang out with everyone and be dressed up and just to have a good time and commiserate and celebrate, right? That's what we do best around here. All right, everyone. Well, thank you again for tuning in today. I had a really nice time with Kye. Again, I recommend you look up our collaboration on Feelin Weird. It was really intense in a great way, and I'm very proud of the work that we did together between these two episodes. I love you all very much and I'll talk to you next time.