Friendship Breakups SUCK! with Hilary

My friend, Hilary, and I talk about friendships as adults, and how awful friendship breakups are.

We also talk a bit about the tattoo industry near the end of the episode and go more in-depth into it during the after-party so if you liked that part of the conversation, you can hear it continue over on YouTube!

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Nichole [00:00:01] Hello, my dear sweet listeners. Because the only thing consistent about me is how inconsistently profesh I am, I forgot to plug some upcoming stuff at the end of this episode, so I'm cutting in here to let you know. I believe I mentioned the Discord, but I just want to reiterate that a link to the Discord server is in the show notes, and I highly recommend anyone who's interested to come join us over there. We are now fully moving along with book clubs and movie watch parties and just general conversation. And also we're having our first group discussion this Saturday, which is... Checking the calendar... February 20th at 12:30p.m. Pacific Time to talk about sex. And the reason for that is because on Valentine's Day I did a live stream with Mexie and Catherine, both from self-titled YouTube channels, about sex under patriarchy and sex and socialization.

Nichole [00:01:25] The live stream went really well, we've gotten great feedback on that video. So if you're interested, you can watch that video on my YouTube channel. For now, this will not be content, these sex streams as we're calling them, will not be posted on this podcast. We may eventually create a separate podcast for them and a separate YouTube channel but right now we're kind of just doing them on our YouTube channels as we feel like it. So, yeah, if you're interested in that, we talk about really just general, you know, pressures around performance and faking. And Mexie gave a great anatomy lesson of the vagina to explain how things work and where things are. And of course, very on brand, I went on a whole rant at the end about queerness and queering things and then gave the first lesson in how to queer your sex. Whether you're heterosexual, part of the LGBTQ community, whether you're partnered or single, whatever your situation is. I'm hoping to give little lessons like this on some of the streams. And we're also hoping to do future anatomy lessons as well for different parts of the body.

Nichole [00:02:46] So, yeah, I just think this is a really exciting new venture and I'm really excited to see where it goes. So if you have any interest in any of that, again, the video replay can be found on YouTube. And whether you listen to it or not, you're more than welcome to join the conversation on the Discord channel on Saturday, February 20th. I think that'll be really cool. And it's something I want to start doing on a regular basis, which is having us all talk to each other as a community so that the content that I create isn't just existing in a vacuum or is a one way conversation, but it's actually something that we then use to build more community and to push, you know, any philosophies or concepts further together. So I think that'll be really cool.

Nichole [00:03:46] Welcome to Pynk Spots, a queer anarchist space where we smash the patriarchy by celebrating what is strong about being soft. Here we'll explore what is vulnerable, raw, hurt, healed, sensual, queer and controversial. So join me and my friends from around the Internet as we talk about deep shit and prove, as Janelle Monáe said, that pink is the truth you can't hide.

Nichole [00:04:21] Hey everyone. Welcome to Pynk Spots. As you can see, today in the stude I have my friend, and some of your friend, Hilary. Hi, Hilary. Welcome to the show.

Hilary [00:04:36] Hello.

Nichole [00:04:36] So today, our much anticipated topic is friendships and specifically friendship breakups and how much they suck. You all expressed a lot of interest in this topic. I went out on Instagram and Facebook and asked you for your own stories, and a lot of you submitted some really intense stories about friendship breakups that you've been through yourself. But I think today, first, before we get into the breakup part of friendships, Hilary and I wanted to talk about friendships as an adult and how they can kind of change over time and what they look like as you get older, because I think that also feeds into how we experience friendship breakups as an adult. So, my friend, where should we start?

Hilary [00:05:27] Well, I don't know. I feel like, I was thinking this earlier, I was feeling like we both have very different, like friendship journeys too.

Nichole [00:05:39] Yeah, we do.

Hilary [00:05:39] And then I was thinking about how the way that, like how every single person's relationship with their friends is different. And it's just like the way I am with my friends could be totally different from the way someone else is with their friends. And I thought about this idea of like intimacy a lot.

Nichole [00:06:01] Aw I love that.

Hilary [00:06:01] And how some friends are like very affectionate, physically affectionate with each other. And then some friends just like, I keep seeing these Tik-Toks like this my best friend for 20 years and we've never hugged. This is our first hug.

Nichole [00:06:13] Oh wow!

Hilary [00:06:13] Yeah, it's just crazy how different friendships can be.

Nichole [00:06:19] So what do you think, how would you describe, I guess, your friendship landscape? What does it look like for you now, and has it changed for you since you were younger?

Hilary [00:06:30] Yeah, I had a major kind of change in high school. So up until that point, I was very shy.

Nichole [00:06:39] You?! That's so cute.

Hilary [00:06:43] I was so shy, so nervous.

Nichole [00:06:46] Aww.

Hilary [00:06:47] And just so quiet. Like I didn't go out of my way to talk to people at all. And so I just kind of fell in with one group and stayed with that group until grade 10. And then in grade 11, I was just sitting in class with these girls who I knew, they were my acquaintances but we weren't really good friends. And we started bonding over this really cute boy that had made me a mix CD, like honest. And they were like, oh my God! And anyway, so I started hanging out with them and they were like very different from my other friend group. They like, they went out and they like did things and they were always together hanging out outside of school, which I had never experienced that level of friendship before.

Hilary [00:07:31] And even like, I always thought to myself, like, I wish I had a friend that I could just go over to their house and, like, open their fridge. Because, like, that's what you see in, like, movies and TV shows and stuff. And then these friends were those. And I was, I just opened up like I just blossomed at that point. And that was when I really came out of my shell. And we have been best friends for 12 years and the four of us are just as solid as ever. And so I've only really had those like two main kind of friend groups I guess. And I've had people come in and out, obviously. But I have a very, I feel very, very, very grateful, very lucky for the group I have right now.

Nichole [00:08:20] That's incredible to find that kind of connection with people. I think I probably had maybe a similar start when I was younger, where I typically would have maybe one very close friend and then almost no other friends at all. I always was like very by myself, very quiet, very shy, very awkward - so awkward. And, you know, unfortunately I, like from high school, I entered into a relationship with someone who was pretty controlling. And so that length of time where I didn't really have a significant social group was extended probably into my mid-twenties, where I still would maybe have like a best friend. I had someone I was close to, but I but I wasn't really able to kind of spread my wings and get that sort of openness that you seem to be describing.

Nichole [00:09:22] And, you know, honestly, I don't think it was... I had two different I guess like other experiences where in my thirties I organized a vegan meet-up group locally. And from that I suddenly had, like, this giant group of like 15 to 20 friends. And at first it was really great and felt cool, like if it was your birthday, you'd have like 20 people at your birthday party, you know, like your birthday dinner or something. Which for me was like, oh my god, I'm so popular, I'm so famous. But the problem there was that the bond we had ended up being more superficial than I realized at first. You know, you feel like you're bonded over something like veganism and that would be a tight bond. But over time, it became clear that our politics were very different. And, you know, things that like... I don't want to say that veganism doesn't matter, but like things that really matter started to fall apart.

Nichole [00:10:26] Like I remember, for instance, there was one friend that I was probably, Callie and I were both like the closest with her and her husband. And she would just do a lot of stuff that I didn't like. So I would try to set a boundary, and she was the type of person that once I set a boundary, she would start doing it more, you know? So it was just stuff like that. And there was just no conflict resolution in the group. It was just really difficult. So that kind of fell apart. And then I was sort of like, you know, low friendship group for a while.

Nichole [00:11:04] And then it was really when I started doing this show and meeting people online that I sort of came into this second wave of finding people to connect with. And fortunately, some friendships have come and gone, but I seem to have collected, like now I have a group where it's the four of us and we're very close and it feels really safe. And we talk a lot about how we probably will be friends forever. You never know what's going to happen, but it just feels like it's built on a foundation of, you know, like we've been friends for years and things are really good and we have really good communication. So it's so nice to have that. And it really does help, like, open you up to the world in certain ways that I just think you can't get if you don't feel - Mexie's like Yeaahhh!! Mexie's part of my group!

Nichole [00:11:59] But yeah, it's interesting to go from that experience because when you, like my heart did a little ooh when you talked about wanting to be able to just open someone's fridge, because I always wanted that too. I was like, I want to feel like I can just go grab a drink or something and that's OK. And yeah, I just grew up pretty isolated and didn't have that for a long time, and it is really nice to have that with people.

Hilary [00:12:29] It is.

Nichole [00:12:30] So I think like one of the things that I had in my notes, you know, the outline that we put together together, together, is how for me... I think it's different for you because it sounds like I think your friends are physically close to you or no?

Hilary [00:12:48] Yep. I have one friend a few hours away in the group. But I feel like this might be interesting to talk about too. Some friendships really like prosper only like in social settings when you're physically with each other. But I find my friend group almost like does better in our group chat. Like, it's just, it works.

Nichole [00:13:13] That's great.

Hilary [00:13:13] And we see each other maybe like once a month or something? You know, two of them live 10 minutes away from me. We still just do most of our catching up and talking on our group chat.

Nichole [00:13:25] I think that's really, this whole quarantine situation has been really interesting because I have my two friends that were local, one of them just moved away, but we had been used to, a big bond for us was physically getting together and playing board games. And when the quarantine hit last year, we just stopped hanging out and we honestly kind of just stopped talking a lot. And then when Sarah went to move away, we realized, like, we don't want our friendship to fall apart. So we started being more intentional about using Marco Polo and texting. And we just started doing a board game simulator to play board games together, virtually. And it's actually awesome. And it really, we were amazed at how much we felt like we really were hanging out with each other the first time we did it.

Nichole [00:14:21] So, yeah, it's been interesting to just kind of see, like, how do relationships work with this new dynamic? And I think also like Mexie and I have only ever known each other virtually and we're super close. Whereas with other people, yeah, it's like you kind of have to be in person or else you just can't really sustain it. And I think that ties into, like something that I've really struggled with is, and it's funny because I'm someone who doesn't need to necessarily hang out with people often. But I really miss the casualness of youth. I miss the ability to just sort of like go to someone's house. Or I miss even my best friend when I was in my late teens/early twenties, she and I ended up being roommates for a while. And I miss, like, the casualness of just us both coming home and we would watch cold case files all night and we would like make each other dinner. And I just really miss that.

Nichole [00:15:26] The last time I went home and I visited her, there was a lot of pressure on what are we going to do? And she planned all this stuff that we could go do. And I was like the best time I had with her during that trip was one night me, her and her husband ended up getting a little tipsy and watching Antiques Roadshow. And I was like, this is all I wanted. I just wanted to be chill, you know? And I feel like as an adult, that's really hard. I feel like it's hard to just have that, like, very casual, you know, like even I wanted to watch Promising Young Women with my buddies, and it's like, with time zone differences and all this stuff, like we couldn't just like, watch a movie. And I really miss that a lot.

Hilary [00:16:09] Yeah. I even, two of my friends came over, we were all really craving soft pretzels so we made soft pretzels.

Nichole [00:16:21] I love that!

Hilary [00:16:23] We watched Love Island and we just watched like two episodes and then like I remember this feeling of like, do we, do we keep watching? Like, are they just going to go home now? Or like, I don't know, like it's kind of my bedtime, so like I don't know.

Nichole [00:16:39] Yeah, you need to go.

Hilary [00:16:43] Yeah! But that's so different when you were an adult, I feel like that really changes. Like before I'll binge the whole season like all night. But now it's like I couldn't imagine doing that with my friends right now.

Nichole [00:16:56] Yeah. Like honestly it occurred to me that I don't think you and I would be close if we hadn't, like as close, if we hadn't met at the Animal Rights Conference because you walked up to the table to just say whatever and I was like, come have lunch with us. And then we just ended, you know, with Maddie, we ended up just like palling around the whole weekend. And we got to have that, like, very casual sort of time together where it's just like, oh, we're all in one place for a few days so like, let's stay up late, let's do whatever we want.

Nichole [00:17:34] And I just think that was such an incredible opportunity. You know, because you're someone I really enjoy having in my life. And I think we probably would have connected online in some way, but it just wouldn't have been the same, you know? Like that's such a bonding experience. And we've been able to do that at other times, well I think at least one other time, where it's like, oh I'm here, let's meet up and let's just like hang out and eat takeout and like, chat. Yeah, and it's so nice. And I just wonder, like, what else am I missing out on that you just can't do that? You know, even just to call someone and be like, I'm bored and have them be like, I'm bored too, and it's like, well, let's be bored together, you know?

Hilary [00:18:25] Yeah. I feel very lucky because I live in the east coast of Canada and so we, our COVID situation, it has not been even close to other parts of the world. And like we've, I guess this past summer, for us, it felt like a totally normal summer. Because masks weren't even like mandated. We can hang out in groups up to 20 and down to groups of ten now but still, like that is such a privilege. And I feel like there are so many friendships and relationships struggling because of that. And I just feel so grateful that like, life hasn't really changed a ton here for us, which is such a privilege. And I think, like when we went through that short period here at the beginning of quarantine, we all kind of started being like, oh my God, how is this going to change our friendships? And, like, since we don't even have the option of going out anymore, we like really, I think we like tried to put it online too much, like we just tried too hard. Because it was like, we have to all be playing things online and doing these things. And that's totally understandable for those of you who are still doing the quarantine life. And I, I can't imagine, I feel so lucky.

Nichole [00:20:02] Yeah, it has been, it's so weird to just think about, because I think part of my struggle, if you will, or I think just the struggle of friendships as an adult, is like career stuff getting in the way too. Because with my bestie Sarah, in 2019 I was incredibly busy. I was traveling all over the place. I was super burnt out and my work schedule was so intense that I was like, I have to just work. I can't really focus on anything else. So I didn't really see my friends, and specifically her, that much in 2019. And then in 2020 it flipped where she was super busy. And I mean she was always generally busy anyway. But then the quarantine hit and she's in retail so she was like, I don't want to put you at risk because I'm around customers all day.

Nichole [00:21:01] And then she decided, her and her husband decided they had had enough of capitalism. I'm so proud of her. And she ended up selling her house and moving to somewhere cheaper. And she's like, just going to chill and figure it out. Which I think is really cool but, you know, I kind of was thinking about this episode. I was sort of processing this idea that first of all, it's just this idea that your job would take up so much time that you can't invest that in the people that you care about. But then also this idea that, I don't know, it's kind of like almost weird to me in a way that you don't... I don't know how to say this without sounding like a weirdo. Let me think about it. It's just kind of like, it was really sad for me that we had so much time apart and that she had decided to have more time but somewhere else.

Nichole [00:22:04] And I know why, because the cost of living here is so high that they felt like we need to go, we need to go somewhere else. And she's always like, move up here, come up here with us. But, you know what I mean, it's just like this whole... It's like you have more time now, but I'm not there. So we're still apart and it just feels really sad. And she expresses that too, that it's really sad. She's like, it's so, because she was such a little career woman. And you know, was just always busy and in charge of stuff and being Ms Manager and then like, she'll Marco Polo me from bed and just be like, it's one o'clock, I'm still in bed, hi, how are you? And I'm like, who is this person? And I just think it's so adorable. And I'm like, if it wasn't COVID, if like, we didn't live apart, this could be a situation where I could just come over and be like, hey, let's like be bored together today or let's go on some a little adventure.

Nichole [00:23:08] So I don't know. I don't think there's a real point there, but it just was something I was thinking about where I think for a lot of people, your friends are people that you care about, but they're not people you make life decisions around. And I'm finding that for myself, like I do feel like I would make life decisions around my friends. And that's something that's been very hard for me over my whole lifetime, is understanding constantly that, like no matter how close I am to someone, at some point it's going to be like, oh, well I'm going to move with my husband somewhere. Or I'm going to go do this thing and I'm just supposed to accept that as like, all right, that's just what you're doing. I mean, of course, like, I want people to do what they want to do, but it's just always struck me as a little weird that it's like, I'm a key core relationship in your life and I've had people tell me that they're moving, like it's just a decision they already made, you know, instead of like, oh I'm thinking about it. And, you know, this is going to really change our relationship. And I don't know.

Hilary [00:24:14] Yeah, I have never really thought about how friendships aren't really considered in those decisions.

Nichole [00:24:20] Mhmm. Because you consider your family and you obviously consider your significant other. But I feel like you don't consider your friends in the same way, yeah.

Hilary [00:24:28] No, you don't. And when I was in my early twenties, I met this guy, I moved to Florida and I didn't like think about... Like I moved to Florida with the intentions of staying there. Crazy. Looking back now I'm like, what the fuck?

Nichole [00:24:46] I'm like, be polite, don't laugh.

Hilary [00:24:49] No, no, no. I don't know... Yep, anyway. And so -

Nichole [00:24:59] Wait, where did you meet him?

Hilary [00:25:02] On Instagram, bitch.

Nichole [00:25:04] Oh my god.

Hilary [00:25:07] Oh, it's a long story.

Nichole [00:25:08] Oh, you will have to tell me the story sometime.

Hilary [00:25:11] Yeah.

Nichole [00:25:11] OK, so you're in Florida.

Hilary [00:25:15] Yeah, so I just kind of like up and left to Florida and it was heartbreaking because I'm so close with my family. And because I have such a good relationship with my group, my friend group online, I didn't really consider that. But when I got there, that's when I felt it, because I was like, I'm literally, I'm in Florida. I know nobody except my boyfriend. And I don't want to hang out with him 24/7. Like I couldn't work, so I couldn't really meet people. It was tough, like it was really tough. And I think that was, it wasn't the whole reason that we broke up and I came back, but it definitely played a huge part. Like if I had my own community there, I don't think I would have felt so pressured in my relationship to make it work.

Nichole [00:26:11] Yeah, so I was dating that person who was controlling, and he ended up joining the Air Force in our mid-twenties and the plan was that he was going to get through boot camp and then we were going to get married and I was going to live on base with him. And I realized, like, what the fuck are you doing? Because I'm like, exactly that. Like, this relationship is already so isolating, but at least here you have some friends, you have your job, like you have some ties here. If I go live on a fucking military base where the average age of the people we're going to be around is like 18 or 19 and they're all, like I'm going to be hanging out with, like, military wives? Please. Can you imagine? And a lot of these bases are like out in the middle of nowhere so it's, you know, I would probably same, like have a hard time finding a job and have a hard time like having any kind of social life.

Nichole [00:27:15] But yeah, but it was like not even a question to me at the time that, of course, I was going to do that, you know? And now I'm like, I just want to live with my friends. I just, like we talk about it all the time, like where can we move in the world, because we're like international. So it's like where can we, you know, you and me too, where can we move in the world where we can all afford to live and we can be close to each other, but not too close, so we can still have our space? And it's funny that we all talk about this and it's really nice now because a few of my friends have significant others that they're very serious about, but we still like include each other in these, like, fantasy plans that we have, which I think is really sweet.

Hilary [00:28:04] That is sweet.

Nichole [00:28:05] Yeah, I love that for us. OK, so somewhat relatedly, and you may not identify with this, but I have something that I need to get off my chest. So you can let me know if you relate or not. So I am someone who is essentially orphaned by abuse, if you will. I'm someone who has no family due to needing to cut them off because they were terrible. I also experienced, I guess this fits on the topic too, when I was in middle school, my parents moved us from Massachusetts to New Hampshire. And that was really hard for me because I actually did have like a really good, tight community in Massachusetts. I lived in this like really bad area of some shitty city. And all of us neighborhood kids were really tight with each other.

Nichole [00:29:07] And when we moved to New Hampshire, I feel like everyone had grown up together since, like kindergarten or even preschool. And so it was really hard. It just felt like everyone already had their friends, and I just felt so alone and outside of everything. So I got really depressed and had a very hard time with that. Where was I going with that? Oh, so anyway, so my family life sucked as well. So even before I actually left my family, I was that kid who friends would bring home and I was like this ragamuffin little kid who like, people could tell that my parents didn't take care of me, you know? And I would often like, my friends because of this, my friends would often invite me to like family holiday stuff, or their parents would tell me, like, if you need anything, let me know and we'll help you. And a lot of times people would say I was family.

Nichole [00:30:06] But, here's my rant. At the same time. Then I wouldn't be invited to like family events or actually included as a family member. And often, like, I don't ask for help ever, but I did go through this really, really hard time when I was 19 and I needed a place to live for just a few months. And I finally reached out and I was like, hey, like I do, I do need some help. And everyone was like, oh yeah, about that. It was like, I just wanted to feel good by saying it, I didn't actually want you to take me up on it. And so that has always been really hard for me is like, people often tell me that I'm family to them. And I do think that there's a large amount of... I don't know how to put this, but it's almost like I'm a stray cat or dog and people are like, oh isn't this cute of us to adopt her? But I'm not actually, like, integrated into their actual family, so I just feel constantly rejected and confused.

Nichole [00:31:18] And this is probably the autism, too, of like I'm very literal about things so I'm like, well if we're family then we're family. But this happened to me, like my friend had a housewarming party and I was, like she told me about it after and I was like, oh, you did? And she was like, oh well it was just family. And I was like, well, I couldn't come? Like, aren't I...?

Hilary [00:31:44] That's heartbreaking.

Nichole [00:31:44] Yeah. So it's, I know your family is like, awesome so I know this is probably maybe something you can't relate to, but it's been something I want to put out there for the other people in the world who are strays. Because I think, yeah, people almost fetishize us a little bit where it's like, it's cute to like, take care of the stray, but then when it comes down to it, you're not family.

Hilary [00:32:10] Yeah.

Nichole [00:32:12] Yeah.

Hilary [00:32:13] That's sad.

Nichole [00:32:16] It is sad. It sucks. And I know for some, I mean, it does happen sometimes where people do genuinely take someone in as family. It's just rare, and I've noticed people will throw that word around a lot more easily than they should. Because I think, especially to someone who literally doesn't have family and doesn't have support, it's a pretty serious thing to say. You know, it's like a bit of a commitment almost, and I think people just like have... Yeah, I just think they have these romanticized ideas about like, oh, it's fun to say we're family, and then but also like you're not invited to the wedding, bye!

Nichole [00:32:56] Well, I think a good segue topic is, I think you wrote here, longtime friends hitting different milestones at different points in their life and how that can change the dynamic. And that possibly could lead us into the topic of friendship breakups and how much they suck.

Hilary [00:33:12] Yeah.

Nichole [00:33:13] So do you want to tell us your thoughts on that?

Hilary [00:33:15] Yeah. In my friend group, like, I met my partner a few years ago and like, we're really settling down and doing all the adult shit and so is another one of my friends.

Nichole [00:33:30] Owning chickens. Or living with chickens we'll say.

Hilary [00:33:38] Yeah. And another one of my friends like, is engaged and she just started her own business. And our other two friends are very, very successful, like in school and work. But I feel like the romantic aspect of our lives are very different. And I found that especially in terms of like going out for a night and like partying, it's different now. It's so different. And like, we're going out at 11, like uhh...

Nichole [00:34:17] Yeah, no.

Hilary [00:34:17] But it's still fun. They love to hear about my boring ass life and I love to hear about their, like, single adventures that I like am low-key jealous of. But it's just interesting, like it's... I feel like sometimes if one friend is kind of stuck in a certain place - and I'm grateful this isn't really our scenario. But I've had other kind of like more so acquaintances, I guess, that this has happened where they've kind of just like, they're not getting over a certain hump in their life or they're really like stuck in a certain place, and then I kind of like keep on moving or vice versa. And then that, like you said, can just kind of be the reason that a lot of friendships crumble.

Nichole [00:35:14] Yeah, I think that that definitely played a part in my most famous breakup because there was definitely - aw, sorry Mexie distracted me with her unconditional love.

Hilary [00:35:31] Aww.

Nichole [00:35:32] Aww. Yeah, no but there was definitely a really... It's so hard because it's like I've been stuck so many times in my life, you know, and I've been in like bad places and kind of unable to get out of it and I've felt judged by other people, so it's like you never want to do that to someone else. But I can, you know, I also kind of understand it now because it can get to a point where you're like, I just can't be in this with you anymore. Especially when, like, you're so... I don't know, it's like you become part of that stuckness. I don't know if that's ever happened to you, but it's like you're almost part of that stuck identity. Because it's like, oh if we're both stuck, then I don't have to feel bad. Or if I put you in a position where you're kind of reinforcing that this is not my fault. Or, you know, you just kind of get sucked into this person's, like, stuck identity and then you're kind of like, I can't wear this mantle for you anymore, I need things to change. It can be really hard. But you feel like an asshole because you're like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to make someone feel bad about their situation, but I just can't do it.

Hilary [00:36:55] 100 percent. I had, I think, a few of my relationships that kind of were in that sort of stuck identity were because of just, like, partying.

Nichole [00:37:07] Ugh yes.

Hilary [00:37:08] Like I lived in Toronto for a year and I didn't really know anybody, and so you meet people by going out and drinking and partying and so that's what I was always doing. And then these people that I met, especially this one particular friend, like we got along so well. And then I started to realize, like kind of down the line in the friendship, was that for her it was about the partying. There was never meant to be anything more than that to the friendship. She would call me up on like a Friday night or whatever to go out and I'd be like, yeah, sure. But then when I'd call her on like a Sunday afternoon for lunch, like, she'd be like, oh no, I can't. And then I kind of realized, like, OK, like I really want a friend in the city and she just really loves having a fun girl to party with.

Nichole [00:38:07] Yeah.

Hilary [00:38:09] So that friendship ended in a ball of flames pretty quickly.

Nichole [00:38:19] Yeah, it's amazing how often alcohol is involved in these kinds of situations. Because that was the thing too, for me, is like as I was trying to be more and more serious about addressing my health issues, you know, alcohol is a thing that's like really bad for me. And so I would go through dry periods where I'm like, I'm just not drinking. You know, I'm trying to do a thing. And it's amazing how much that would impact the dynamic. And I was like, well, this isn't healthy. If this is going to so negatively impact our dynamic, then what are we doing? You know?

Hilary [00:38:57] Yeah. I did, like a few years ago, I just stopped drinking for like one or two years. And it was mainly influenced by the fact that I just hated hangovers more than I liked being intoxicated so I just stopped. And it was kind of like a challenge to myself too, like, how long will this go for or whatever. But I saw even the closest friendships in my life changed a bit because of that. And not drastically, not in ways that couldn't be repaired. Just I would get invited out less, I, even if my friends knew I'd say no, you still want the invite.

Nichole [00:39:45] Of course! That's the introvert's mantra. It's like, I'm going to say no 90 percent of the time, but I want you to invite me.

Hilary [00:39:52] Yes! This is me to a tee. My friends know, like, I don't really like live music. It's kind of like a shitty personality trait, but I just don't.

Nichole [00:40:03] I think our friendship was just damaged. Just kidding.

Hilary [00:40:08] I just love dancing and I love really particular kinds of music and so if I feel like I can't dance to something, I don't want to be there.

Nichole [00:40:15] But you can just do the white person sway.

Hilary [00:40:20] I hate it.

Nichole [00:40:20] Isn't that satisfying?

Hilary [00:40:24] Like I'm going to pay $10 to just like, pretend to have a good time? But I still want the invite.

Nichole [00:40:26] That's so funny. I actually love live music, but I hate how late it all starts and I hate how much standing around there is. So I would have similar, I dated one person who was like, a live music junkie and he was just constantly dragging me out at like 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. on like a Tuesday. I'm like, dude, I cannot do this. I can't do it.

Hilary [00:40:53] No way. No way.

Nichole [00:40:53] So I respect it, I respect it.

Hilary [00:40:56] I'm really outing myself here.

Nichole [00:40:57] You are.

Hilary [00:40:59] For the whole world to know.

Nichole [00:41:01] This is going to be Pynk Spot's first scandal. I platformed a person who doesn't like live music.

Hilary [00:41:12] Yeah, I'm [inaudible].

Nichole [00:41:16] Yeah. I think that's good, though. I think it's cool and that's the thing is like as I've gone on in my life, because I used to be very kind of rigid when I was younger and I learned to like, chill, you know, as I got older. And one of the best things I think I learned over time was just how to see someone for what they can offer you and to just really enjoy that. Versus like thinking that everyone has to have the same exact hobbies or whatever. Right, like I have friends who will binge an entire season of a show with me, and that's awesome. But they may not be the friends who want to go to yoga class with me or whatever. You know, they may not be friends who want to travel. I'm very much stereotyping here.

Nichole [00:42:02] But, you know, I just learned like, it's OK. And I mean, it's OK if, like, some of that stuff prevents you from getting super close. But I just think, yeah, I felt so much pressure from people to have to be into the same things that they're into. That was a big part of that giant friend group as well, because it was the meet-up that I organized was oriented around food. And it became very expensive because we were doing potlucks, like all the time. And it also was just very triggering and difficult for me with, like eating disorders and stuff to just like, we would get together and they would just talk about food the entire time. And I would be like, hey, I watched a cool movie the other night. And they'd be like, so anyway, you know.

Hilary [00:42:55] Yeah.

Nichole [00:42:57] Tofutti, can you even believe it? And I'd be like ugh. And it just, it was also strangely very capitalist because they were all like obsessively talking about new vegan products all the time. And so it's almost like when you have friends who watch a lot of media - guilty - and you don't, and you're like, you almost feel this pressure like you need to start watching media because that's all they're talking about. That's how I felt, is like we had to constantly go out to the newest vegan restaurant, we had to try the newest vegan product because that's what they would be talking about. So it was just, you know, and I tried to start connecting with them one on one and be like, well, do we have something else in common that we could just, like, focus on that? But no.

Hilary [00:43:48] Yeah.

Nichole [00:43:48] But then, yeah, then they started to have very liberal politics that I was discovering and I was like, never mind.

Hilary [00:43:54] Gotta go.

Nichole [00:43:54] Not for me. Yeah.

Hilary [00:43:56] That sort of reminded me of something that you talked about a bit that I really related to in the first episode of Pynk Spots. When you were saying how like in friendships or just relationships, like you find yourself like bending kind of for the other person or kind of molding who you are based off what they need. And always kind of like micromanaging the friendship.

Nichole [00:44:32] Yes.

Hilary [00:44:32] Whether they've been asking you to. Like, since I was very small, my mom always used to tell me, like, Hilary, you're a chameleon. You're just such a chameleon. No matter what group you're in, you just fit in with them. And like it was meant as a compliment but I don't think that's really a good thing. It can always be a good thing, I guess, because you just become the people you're with and it's not authentic, and I didn't really know who I was for a really long time, and I still find myself doing that. But I think it's those friendships that last that you can, you don't have to have this particular bond. You don't have to kind of find the similarity and hang on to it, when you can just both be individuals and yourself and then also friends. That's where the longevity of the relationship comes from.

Nichole [00:45:34] Yeah, I completely agree. And it is hard when you don't really know yourself yet. I'm also like that. I'm like very good at being a chameleon. And I would find myself, you know, when I was younger, like I would be around women at work and I would find myself talking about like shopping. And I'm like, what is happening right now? You know, like I'm not, not that I never talk about shopping, but like, it's just not what I do. But I was falling into these kind of tropes of like, oh, women at work, like we talk about shopping. And yeah, it was just really hard. And, you know, as I got older and I got to know myself better, I find I can kind of bend social situations to my personality more now. Like I can kind of guide the conversation in a way where it feels more authentic. But it was really hard to do when I was younger. I just-

Hilary [00:46:28] Really hard.

Nichole [00:46:29] Yeah. And then you walk away and you just feel kind of like... I don't know, like, you're like, OK I guess that interaction went well, but also who was that? What was I doing?

Hilary [00:46:41] You don't get anything fulfilling out of it for yourself.

Nichole [00:46:44] No.

Hilary [00:46:45] And that might be a good segue into friendship breakups, because that's pretty much what happened with mine.

Nichole [00:46:52] Do tell.

Hilary [00:46:56] Sit down. No, um.

Nichole [00:46:57] Grab your popcorn.

Hilary [00:47:02] So basically I met this person like a few years back and I met her during like a very trying and traumatic time in her life and she was dealing with difficulties with pregnancies. And so I became such a support for her and that was the base of our foundation, was her troubles with her pregnancy. And that was like, fine for me. Like I was more than happy to be that support for her. And I enjoyed being that support for her and I wanted to be. And so anyways, she got pregnant, she had a baby. The baby was premature, so she was in the hospital for a little while. And I used to like, you know, drive out to another province to go visit her. Like, and I really made the effort, like I was very much there for her.

Hilary [00:48:07] And then when she came back home and the baby, you know, the baby was fine and growing up and I just felt like... I don't know, I felt like every time we hung out when things were OK in her life, it still revolved around her because, and this is the fault of my own too, but because our friendship was never about me in the first place, because I was always that huge support for her. And I didn't realize until very late, like later, like why I felt like that. Like I would just leave our friendship or our hangouts and just be like, why am I so drained? And why do I, I just started to dread seeing her. And like, if I had to, if I knew we were hanging out on a certain day, I would purposely like plan that week so that I could have the most amount of energy to go hang out with her just for a few hours.

Hilary [00:49:11] And the whole conversation would just revolve around, you know, her life. And that's totally fine, like I'm a very good listener, but I just didn't understand, like I would just leave feeling so empty and I didn't really know why. And that's when I kind of realized, like, our friendship was never balanced to begin with. And what I realized too, was I didn't want to find a balance. And when I realized that, when I realized I didn't want to find a balance, that's when I knew I had to end the friendship. It just got to a point where, like, I was psyching myself up so much just to hang out with her. And it was brutal. Like, I don't know if you've been in a situation where someone's just like ranting, ranting, ranting at you, and then they're like, OK, so what's new in your life? Tell me what's new. What's going on? And then my mind is just like blank. This is not organic at all. Like, I don't know what's happening with me.

Nichole [00:50:18] I fucking hate when I'm talking to someone and I can tell that they're like, I've been talking for a while, I should...

Hilary [00:50:26] Yes!

Nichole [00:50:26] You know, but you know that it's not sincere. It's literally like, I just don't want to look like a bad guy so let me ask one question and then I'll get back to talking about myself. I hate that, it's so awkward. Because I'm the same way. Like, I don't need to talk about myself. Believe it or not, I know everyone here probably won't believe that. But in real life, I really don't need to talk about myself. So I'm like you, like I can be a good listener, I can just chill. But it's like, I don't want to have a fake interaction and I don't want to be talking about myself when the other person's like clearly not listening or caring. And I find that those people tend to just not give me what I need emotionally when I'm talking anyway. Like they're the type of people who would be like, well, but at least this didn't happen to you.

Hilary [00:51:17] Oh my god, yes.

Nichole [00:51:18] Or like, oh yeah, like that happened to me but like, way worse. And you're just like, all right, I guess I'll just go fuck myself then.

Hilary [00:51:27] I specifically remember this one, hanging out with this one friend, and she did the thing where she was like, so what's new? What's going on? Tell me about your life. And so I just like pulled this thing out of thin air that was the first thing that popped into my head, which is like a kind of small little argument between me and my partner. And at the end of my story, I was like venting for like maybe a minute - I get very self-conscious if I realize I'm talking for more than like two minutes straight. But anyway, so I, like, stopped the story and then she was just like, if that's your only problem... And I was like... excuse me?

Nichole [00:52:09] Wow.

Hilary [00:52:13] It was just... And then I just feel embarrassed because you're like, well fuck me then, like why do I bother?

Nichole [00:52:18] Shit like that puts me on 10 immediately. And I'm just like, listen OK, any relationship I have in my life, not any relationship, but if I'm friends with someone and also if I'm dating someone, and I would assume family, from what I hear, a lot of your primary job in my life is to just care about the little shit. Right? Like I'm not expecting everyone on the Internet or everyone in my job or whatever to care about the little stuff, but like, that's why you have people in your life that you're close to. It's like, oh my god, my friend Sarah and I, we used to have a weekly date where we would go have vegan sushi together and then we would do yoga. And it was like my favorite thing in the whole world. And you should have seen, first of all, people always thought we were a couple because we were like so madly in love with each other. And we would like, whenever we would see each other, it was like the first time we had seen each other in years, even though it was like weekly at least.

Nichole [00:53:21] But, point being, is like we would get together and we would just like talk about every little detail of our lives, just such inconsequential stuff. But we were both like invested, you know? Like I really cared about, I would ask her questions like, oh my god, what happened at that meeting you had to hold? Or like, I would know she had to reprimand an employee and it was like, you know, I would be like, how did that go? Or they were changing to a new point of sale system at her stores and like also opening a new store at the same time, it was like crazy. So every week I would be like, oh my god, like is the system working? How is like, did you get this thing fixed? And she would do the same for me, you know? And it was so wonderful. And I just think, like, it's, there's so many people in the world where it's like you have to have some crazy story or they're like, why are you telling me this? And it's like, because you're my fucking friend. It's your job to give a shit about, you know, my presentation at work the other day. Or whatever.

Nichole [00:54:29] Yes, so anyway, yes, very much relate to that. And I don't know if you've had this experience as well, but something that I, something that took me a really long time to realize. So there's this interesting thing when you just constantly have, like, a slight sense of unease with someone and you can never really pinpoint it. And I think one of the reasons that I felt this way with a certain person is that there was a lot, like we would have that where it was a lot of like, share all these little details and constantly checking in with each other. But then it was kind of almost the opposite situation. Like then when, like big, actually important things would happen, suddenly that sense of support wasn't there. And I was like, this is interesting, you know?

Nichole [00:55:23] Especially because the narrative within the friendship is like we're so close, you know, like we have this great relationship. And yeah, like and there would often times too, be like flippant kind of remarks about things that were very serious or traumatic for me. And I was like, oh, I think a lot of this is more of a performance and it's easier to perform this type of relationship when you're like... It's sort of that scripted thing like, oh, if I remember that this is happening at her job and I ask her about it, then I seem like a really good friend. Right? But then it's like when I need actual like real emotional support and some serious shit has gone down, it's not as easy to follow this kind of script to be like, oh, look at me performing friendship.

Nichole [00:56:17] And I don't mean that it was necessarily done in like um... I don't think there were necessarily malicious intent behind it, but it helped me to understand, like, why I so often felt uneasy, even though I was like, well on the surface this looks like a pretty healthy, functioning relationship. And then it also, it just took me a while, I think when things were serious, to be like, why do I feel so weird about this? You know? But then I was like, oh, because I don't think this person actually... I kind of felt like they actually didn't care that much, if I'm being honest.

Hilary [00:57:01] I feel like a lot of people who do that don't realize they're doing it.

Nichole [00:57:08] Yes.

Hilary [00:57:09] And then when you bring it up, they'll never admit or apologize to you because they really don't think they do it.

Nichole [00:57:13] Yeah, it's like what?

Hilary [00:57:16] They really believe it's like well-intentioned and authentic, but I think it's obvious when it is. No one wants to be told that, like the way they've been a friend is a bad way to be a friend. When I broke up with my friend, she was like very blindsided by it. And that's a lot to do with me. And her biggest complaint, I guess, she had with me was that, she was like, why didn't you bring up any of this like during, because I had been feeling this way for like a year. And she's like, why didn't you bring this up? And like, the real answer I would have loved to given her was that, I don't think that she was capable of acting another way and so I didn't think that conversation would have even helped. I think if anything, it would have made things worse.

Hilary [00:58:16] So I just, I always thought to myself, no, I can just push down these feelings for the sake of the friendship. And then I just realized one day that I couldn't push them down and I didn't want to push them down for the sake of the friendship anymore. And it's like, it sucks that I can't go back and do things differently. And I'm sorry about that, and I'm sorry you feel blindsided. But you were never going to see my point and you were never going to understand how I felt about it. Because she still doesn't believe that anything she did, she was in the wrong for, so it makes it impossible sometimes.

Nichole [00:58:59] It does. And it's, yeah, it's really frustrating to me, like, it sucks to get blindsided, but honestly, and this may be an unpopular opinion, but I just really feel that it's so infrequent that someone is actually blindsided.

Hilary [00:59:22] Yeah.

Nichole [00:59:23] I feel like maybe you chose to not see or hear things that were happening. Or, you know, and chose is a strong word. Like I agree with you, I think a lot of this stuff is just, it's not conscious. It's not someone consciously doing it, but it's just how they are. But yeah, it's like, you can't put this entire thing on me. Like even that, like why didn't you say something? It's like, well, do you feel like you've really fostered a relationship where I could say something? If you're being honest?

Hilary [00:59:57] Exactly.

Nichole [00:59:59] You know? And that's kind of like what I had wanted, was like, it's OK for you to be hurt and it's OK for this to suck. But like in these final moments, you can't acknowledge that you know for a fact that you did not create space for these kinds of conversations to happen, and this kind of work to happen? And I mean, for us, we had the same issue. Like I had actually addressed stuff repeatedly and it was not handled. And it's like, yeah, in this parting that we're having, like, you can't just acknowledge that and give me that? Like, it's fine if you're upset, it's fine if you didn't think it was that bad and you're shocked that it's come to that level for me. That's totally understandable. But yeah, it's just really fucking unfair to act like all of this was under my control and on my side, and if I had done things differently we'd have a different outcome, when like, you're here too. Like you are also part of this relationship.

Hilary [01:00:59] Yes. This person like... In her mind, I think blaming me for not coming to her sooner, absolved any wrongdoing that she had done in the friendship.

Nichole [01:01:15] Yep. 100 percent.

Hilary [01:01:19] Like that was the thing that... Like it was all my fault because I didn't come to her sooner. And since she had no idea, she had no fault in it. And once I realized that like, she saw things that way, I was like, there's just no point in me continuing to have this conversation with you. I'm not going to convince you of anything. And she just started to get mean, honestly. And I was just like, I'm done. Sorry, I'm not going to take that.

Nichole [01:01:48] Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, do you not see what you're doing now and how this kind of proves my point? You know?

Hilary [01:01:54] 100 percent. Like I had the biggest epiphany during the conversation we were having where we were like, breaking up. I just was like, oh my god, like this, she was never going to get it. So it just really cemented for me the fact that I did the right thing and it made me feel really good about the decision.

Nichole [01:02:20] Same, yeah. And, you know, in a sick way it's like, you did me a giant favor because I probably would have felt kind of sad or kind of bad but now I'm just like ready to party. Like I'm like, this is great.

Hilary [01:02:37] OK, bye!

Nichole [01:02:38] Yeah, later! Glad to know I don't have to deal with this again. Yeah, and I definitely had, I think it was interesting because I think the biggest thing I had to process from this particular breakup was, who was this person actually all along. And... I'm trying to be nonspecific, but... Yeah, I really had to, I mean, I guess I've already said it, but I really had to grapple with like, like what is this, what politics does this person even actually have and have we've been out here just spouting some bullshit and I didn't know? You know? Like what is this person going to be like now that I'm not in their life? Are they going to go back to how they were before? Like, was all this growth just a performance?

Nichole [01:03:40] It just really kind of threw me for a loop that like, I thought I knew, you know, I thought I had a good handle on this person's, like, flaws and struggles and like who they were. But it just through like this whole new light onto it where I'm like, oh, wow. Like, that's you? OK, well, now I don't really even know what I was just doing.

Hilary [01:04:03] Yep. Yeah, it's one of those moments where people will show their true colors.

Nichole [01:04:08] Yes. Yeah, it really threw me, like to think about what have I attached my name and my reputation and my self to for all this time? I had another friend break up when I was much younger of this person who I just loved. She's so weird and just wonderful. But she was incredibly self-destructive and it finally got to the point where I was like, I can't do this anymore. And a lot of it was around, I mean, it was hard to watch her be self-destructive, but part of the way that her self-destructive tendencies manifested was that she would disappear for weeks or months at a time because she wouldn't want to talk about what she was doing. Because she knew it was like really self-destructive. And, you know, I want to think that, like, she could have talked to me, but I can also admit that I was much more judgy and rigid back then so I can understand why she also felt like she couldn't.

Nichole [01:05:23] But yeah, like this kept happening and then every time she would come back in my life, she was like, oh Nic, I love that you, like I can just pop in and like, you don't give me any shit about being gone. And so it was kind of like she groomed me to not be able to say, well hey, I actually am not OK with it, that you just like, fall off - because she was the type of person we'd hang out, like, four days in a row, and then she would just suddenly be gone for like two months. And I'd be like, where are you? She was one of my like, almost everyday type of friends, but then she would just like, disappear.

Hilary [01:06:02] That's scary.

Nichole [01:06:02] Yeah, yeah. And especially when you know someone's being really self-destructive, you're like, are you alive? Like, can you at least let me know you're not dead? But she got involved, a lot of her self-destructiveness was around like, promiscuous sex. And I'm like, definitely not judging, you know, slut shaming or anything. But she would put herself in like... Like she would sleep with guys at work in a way where it was like then she, like the kind of guys who were not nice to her and would tell everyone at work. So she would do stuff like that where it's like, and she wouldn't get anything out of it. Like sometimes she would give them head during their lunch break and like then they would just go make jokes about her. So it's the kind of thing where you're like, honey, you know, like I really, I love you. Like, I want you to be OK. And that was the sort of stuff like she just wouldn't talk to me about and so she would just disappear.

Nichole [01:07:03] So anyway, we were friends for a couple of years and I ended up moving to California and she decided to ghost on me before I moved. So I kept texting her, being like, I'm moving in three months, I'm moving in two months, I'm moving in a month, I'm moving next week. And she never said anything. And then she ended up emailing me, back when people emailed each other. She ended up emailing me like, I think it was like a few weeks after I had already been living here, being like, hey, I want to get drinks tonight, do you want to join me? Well, she must have texted then. I remember I emailed her and then she was like, we can talk about you moving or something. And I was like, bitch, I'm gone. Like, I've been gone.

Nichole [01:07:50] And so I ended up writing her this big, long email about like, I just couldn't do it. And I was like, it's actually not OK to me that you disappear all the time and it's really hurtful, you know? And like, I'm sure if I read that email today with, like, my radical, leftist, feminist eyes, I'm sure I said stuff that I wouldn't maybe say today. I remember I edited it to make it much softer. So I hope that it's not too harsh. But, you know, I did say like, you're abandoning our friendship because you're doing stuff that you don't want to face. And like you have to understand, that's really hard for me, you know? And I don't get to have space in this relationship. I don't get to call my friend and talk about stuff I need to talk about. I don't get to have your support when I need your support. I didn't even get to say goodbye to you, you know?

Nichole [01:08:50] And she never responded, which was very much like her. She probably saw the subject of the email and didn't even read it. Wouldn't even surprise me. Yeah, and then years and years later, because my best friend back then was our, that's how I met this person was through her so we were kind of like a threesome. When I went back and visited, my friend was like, hey, you know, she's interested, like she wouldn't mind us all going out for drinks or something. And I was like, I just can't, like on this trip, you know? Because I think I only had like one or two days to see my friend. I was like, if I was here longer than maybe we can do that, but I just don't want to have that stress right now.

Hilary [01:09:32] That's very fair.

Nichole [01:09:34] Yeah, but it sucked. Like I still think about her all the time. She was super into like, oh my god, she was so funny. She was so into like rap and hip hop and she was like your stereotypical like tiny white girl. And but in a way that just was very amusing. Like she loves celebrity culture and she would always talk about J-Lo was one of her faves, and she would be like, Nichole, J-Lo never looked better than when she was with Puffy. And I would just be like, what are you talking about? And she would like passionately tell me why that was the height of J-Lo's like beauty and fan, like her fame. And I'd be like all right. I have no counter argument.

Hilary [01:10:22] That's amazing. She kind of reminds me of myself to be honest.

Nichole [01:10:22] Yeah, she was just so fun. You do actually remind me of her a bit. Just without like the wildly self-destructive tendencies. Like when the, what was it, the Biggie Smalls movie came out. She was like, we're going opening night. It was like, very insistent. And I was like, all right, I'll go see that with you. Ah, she was a trip. So yeah, it sucks because, like, she's someone, like I actively miss her. But there just was no, like I would not want to be back in touch with her without knowing, like, what kind of work she's explicitly done on herself to be able to, like, be a friend. And it's almost like when you fall in love with someone and they can't give you what you need and you're like, I just need to cut you off because, like, I feel too strongly about you. That's kind of how I feel about her. Like I love you so much that I can't handle you like, not being able to be a full friend to me.

Hilary [01:11:27] Of course.

Nichole [01:11:28] Yeah. Whereas there's other people where I'm like, we can be casual and that's fine and I just need less from you. But with her it's like, I just adore you too much. Like we need to have a fully functioning relationship or nothing.

Hilary [01:11:42] Yeah. It's hard to watch people go through those things too. Like, it messes with your own boundaries.

Nichole [01:11:52] Yes.

Hilary [01:11:52] And the way you live your life. And sometimes you need to kind of put the cut in it for your own mental health.

Nichole [01:12:01] Yeah. Yeah, that's really true because I know, I think it was somewhat towards the end of our friendship. So she was the type of friend where we would go out or she would come over and she would just regale us with her wild stories. And it was something over time I realized was like, kind of became... It became like we were supporting her destructive behavior in some ways. But she would also spin these stories to make them fun. And it was kind of like only over time did you start to pick up on, like, a) she's flat out lying about some things to make it sound better, and b) like that there's this pattern of self-destructiveness here.

Nichole [01:12:47] But, yeah, she used to tell us, like she dated this really wealthy Middle Eastern person. I can't remember what country he was from, but he was like an oil, like his family was like an oil tycoon family. So he's like this ridiculously wealthy person. And she would just tell us these stories of like where he would take he, and the parties they would go to and the stuff they would do. And she would always tell us about her casual hookups and all the wild things she would do. And it was just so fun and funny. But anyway, to your point, I realized over time that I'm not like that in a sense. Like I do like talking about sex and telling stories and stuff, but I just wasn't like the same speed as her. But I had this casual hookup with this guy and I was talking about it very much in the kind of way that she would talk about it. And I remember she like, pulled me aside after and she was like, I'm kind of concerned, this is very not like you. And I think she saw, she's like, oh maybe I'm rubbing off on you.

Hilary [01:13:56] Oh wow.

Nichole [01:13:57] And was kind of worried about it. Yeah. And it was an interesting moment because I had to really sit down and be like, yeah, is this me or is this not me? You know?

Hilary [01:14:07] Right.

Nichole [01:14:08] And I felt a little judged. Like I think maybe part of it too is like she didn't want to lose her seat as the wild story queen. But at the same time, I kind of appreciated the check in. Which is also ironic because I couldn't check in with her and be like, um I think you might die, can you please stop?

Hilary [01:14:36] Yeah.

Nichole [01:14:36] But anyway, to your point, yeah, it was kind of like the culture of that was sort of starting to skew my behavior and my perception of things in a way that probably wasn't very healthy. And that can be hard. It can be hard to, not that you necessarily need to say it to them, but to look at someone and be like, you're a bad influence on me. You know, and the shit you're doing to yourself, like, I don't want to do that to myself.

Hilary [01:15:04] Yeah. I look back on the friendship that I had with the girl in Toronto. It was just based on partying and I was just like, like I look back on that and I'm like, I do not recognize myself at all, like whatsoever. And I'm glad it never lasted that long. But yeah, it was scary to look back and realize, like I've always prided myself on always staying true to myself and being independent, and just seeing how easily I got kind of thrown into like... I'm going to say dangerous, but I don't know if it was like super dangerous, but I got thrown into this life that, like, just wasn't good.

Nichole [01:15:59] Yeah. I know for me, it's kind of like how intentional is this? It's not even necessarily like, what am I doing? It's more just like, am I doing this intentionally and am I actually enjoying it or am I just doing it because other people are doing it?

Hilary [01:16:16] Right.

Nichole [01:16:16] I know the last time I stopped drinking, that was a big part of it, is I realized I was drinking a lot just because the people around me were drinking a lot. And I had kind of lost my ability to actually evaluate in the moment if I wanted to drink or not. So I was like, let me just stop, because then I know if I'm not, I can just stick to that. But it's harder if I'm like, oh well I could, but I don't know. And yeah, I just realized I was like drinking and like drinking pretty heavily too. Especially for me, yeah, quite often. And it's like, yeah, I don't want to judge anyone's behavior, but I just think when you start wearing these well-worn patterns in your behavior and you stop being able to even picture like how you would relate to each other otherwise, I think that's when it...

Hilary [01:17:12] Yeah.

Nichole [01:17:12] Like when you have a friend, you're like, well, what else would we do? I think that's when it starts to get a little dangerous. Because then it's almost like your relationship is this Pavlovian response where it's like - at least that's what happened to me - is like, oh I'm around this person so I immediately want to drink because that's what we do together.

Hilary [01:17:31] That's our thing.

Nichole [01:17:31] Like I don't, yeah, like I don't even have... I don't know, like I don't even have my own thought process again with it. It's just, yeah, we get together and immediately like there's alcohol somewhere and that's just what it is.

Hilary [01:17:46] Yeah. I find with all of my friends, they're kind of like... Like, I go to this one for this, or if I want to talk about this, I'll go to this one for this, which is usually like really innocent. But when it comes down to like the bigger things, like drinking, I find like drinking is a huge part of friend groups and can really mess things up. Like it's crazy. I don't know, like I feel like I have like a bigger kind of friend group and I feel like, only time all of us really get together is like to go to the bar. Or to, you know, go to someone's house and drink or whatever. And then I find myself being like, or like even looking at other friendships from the outside and being like, wow, they're all just like going out for brunch, or like they're all just going for a walk or something. And it's like, why doesn't my friend group do that or why can't we? Like, why does that naturally come to us? It's really interesting to think about.

Nichole [01:18:52] Yeah. And it's really hard too, because I actually made the effort to be like, oh hey, maybe we could go do this other thing instead, and it did not go over. And that's when you're kind of like, well, I can't ignore this anymore right, because it's like I've noticed it and I've also tried to change it. And now I just kind of have to evaluate, is this going to work for me? And yeah, if you're in a position where you can be like, OK, if I ever feel like I really want to party, I'll give you a call, but otherwise we kind of don't see each other. Sometimes that can work, but a lot of times I think it's like, just sort of the end, you know? Whether it's like a drift apart sort of thing or if it's like an intentional thing, it can be really hard.

Nichole [01:19:46] Because I know like with my two closest friends here, that was a big reason we have lasted as long as we have, is that our friendship was built around like yoga and like eating but like we're all kind of health conscious, whatever that means. You know, so like we have very similar modes of eating. Board games, like talking. So there's just so much like if any of us are not drinking, it's not a big deal because we have just all these other things we like to do together. And honestly, any time we do drink, it's during some other activity, like the drinking isn't the point of our hang out. And that's just been so much more sustainable.

Hilary [01:20:32] Big time, yeah.

Nichole [01:20:33] Yeah. I think that can be really hard for people who have friends... I know like I was close to someone that this was sort of his problem, is that he had friends from high school and college and they were still like his friends, but their friendship had just been around drinking and doing drugs and going to clubs and stuff and they were like still doing those things. But he didn't feel like he knew how to make new and different friends as an adult. So it's like, you just stay and you just keep doing the same thing.

Hilary [01:21:08] Yeah.

Nichole [01:21:09] But you're getting older and older. It's not as cute anymore.

Hilary [01:21:14] That's another topic, like the friends of your partner.

Nichole [01:21:20] Oh, she said it!

Hilary [01:21:20] Which could be a whole other podcast episode probably.

Nichole [01:21:31] Oh my god.

Hilary [01:21:32] My boyfriend now, like he moved from Ontario, like we met when I was in Toronto and he moved out to the East Coast with me. And we've been living here for a few years now, back home. And I thought he would like hate it here but he doesn't. But he still, like it is so hard to make friends. And so I know he's really like mourning not having friendships in his life. And for a while it was like a big... It affected our relationship because he was always home, and he was always with me. And like, I need my effing space. Like I... no.

Nichole [01:22:19] Are you a Scorpio? Have we talked about this?

Hilary [01:22:22] I have a Scorpio moon.

Nichole [01:22:22] That explains it.

Hilary [01:22:29] So, yeah. And it was really hard because, like, I'm kind of like a tough love gal. And so people aren't going to come to me when they need, like, a really gushy, emotional opinion or advice. And especially with him, I'm very kind of blunt and because I do feel like that's what he needs too, and he has told me that as well. But like, you know, a year, year and a half went by and he would still be talking about, you know, it's so hard to make friends here, I don't have any friends here. And I'm just like, OK, so what are you doing about it?

Nichole [01:23:13] I love it.

Hilary [01:23:14] Bless him if he's watching this right now, I love you. But, yeah, it was hard, it affected me. And so I was kind of just like, OK, like if you want to make new friends in this new place, like, you have to make the effort, man. Like this is affecting us, like it's affecting me. And like, I don't know how to be your girlfriend, your partner, your roommate and your friend, like, you know, all the time at once. And anyway, it's like gotten a lot better, but it still just goes to show how hard making adult friends are. You can pretty much like only make them at work.

Nichole [01:23:55] Right.

Hilary [01:23:55] Which is not the best place to make friends because you're always together during the day and you're not going to like always want to hang out with them after that. And so everything just revolves around work and... Anyways.

Nichole [01:24:07] Yeah. Yeah, and it's really, I've come to realize this, especially after leaving my job of 10 years, you know, leaving my company of 10 years. You know, I had some, like, really good friends there along the way. But it's almost nearly impossible to know if you are actually friends with someone or if you're just like trauma bonded over work. Like I had people that I was like, this person is legitimately like my friend. And then the second I left the job, it was like, oh we have nothing to talk about, you know?

Hilary [01:24:46] Yep.

Nichole [01:24:46] And it's, and even like during work, we would talk about all kinds of other stuff. But it was kind of like you said, like it was because we were in proximity to each other. So it's like if we're, have no choice and we're sitting next to each other all day, not to say we don't genuinely like each other, but it just creates this very false sense of intimacy and connection that like sometimes when you change the context, it doesn't work anymore.

Hilary [01:25:15] Totally. And I feel like with friends outside of work, when you're trying to make new friends, like I know like there's some people that I went to coffee with or something that I felt like we had a good connection so I wanted to kind of get to know them better. And then I realize like, if there's, if the conversation just can't flow organically, then, if you don't have enough stuff to kind of like have in common or talk about, it's just probably not going to go many places. But then at work, like you were saying, it's this like false sense of friendship because you always have something to be common about. You always have something to talk about.

Nichole [01:25:57] And when there's lulls, they're like acceptable because you're working.

Hilary [01:26:03] Because you're working.

Nichole [01:26:03] Right? So like if the conversation peters out, it's like, oh I'll just go back to working, which I'm supposed to be doing anyway. And then, yeah, you just kind of have that person there so like any time you do have something to say, you can say it. And yeah, it creates this false sense of like, oh, we always have stuff to talk about. And it's like, well, because you're in an environment that's giving you stuff to talk about and also because you're in an environment where being quiet is like acceptable. Whereas if you're face to face over coffee and then you have that awkward silence, you're like, well fuck.

Hilary [01:26:39] Yeah, yeah! I'm the worst with that too.

Nichole [01:26:44] Ooh, me too.

Hilary [01:26:46] Like my mind just like... Like when I give people tattoos, sometimes like they're pretty quiet and I'm like, anything Hilary, just think of anything you could say right now.

Nichole [01:26:56] Yeah.

Hilary [01:26:57] And I just, there's nothing.

Nichole [01:27:01] I have that problem too. I've gotten better at it, but I think like literally at cost to my health. Like I honestly think that like, it has taken something from me to learn how to do... And even then I'm not, I'm still not great at it. Like I'm only good if I can get someone talking about something that I care about or like that they care about.

Hilary [01:27:25] Yeah, yeah.

Nichole [01:27:25] And I'm very, very bad at mingling. Like, I still... To go into a space where I don't know anyone, I'm still like, fuck this.

Hilary [01:27:39] Yes!

Nichole [01:27:39] I'm like, I'll just die alone. I don't care.

Hilary [01:27:41] Yup, yup.

Nichole [01:27:41] I'm gone.

Hilary [01:27:43] I can force myself to like have, you know, small talk conversations with people when it's to do with, like work I guess? But when it's just kind of like an acquaintance or something, it's awkward. And I feel like social media has kind of...

Nichole [01:28:03] Mhmm. Say it!

Hilary [01:28:03] It's funny, social media because like, I follow so many people in my community, and my city is so small. So like if I leave my house, I will run into someone I know. Like, there's no doubt about it. And whenever you see these people, like, what am I going to say? Like, so I saw you crying on Instagram last night, like, tell me about your trauma. You know what I mean?

Nichole [01:28:32] Yes.

Hilary [01:28:32] Like I feel like I know you so much because I literally follow you on your Instagram, you post all the time, but now you're behind me in the coffee shop and it's just awkward to be like, so I heard your dog had a bladder infection or like, you know what I mean? It just feels weird. To know so much about people.

Nichole [01:28:49] It's so weird.

Hilary [01:28:51] But then in real life it's just awkward.

Nichole [01:28:52] It's very awkward. And that happens to me a lot, meeting people like through the show or like through us all being activists. Just being connected online in whatever way. Because there can be people that I genuinely really like, but when we meet up in person, it's just like, it just doesn't happen. And I don't know why, but it's like I don't know what to talk to you about. Because maybe we have this connection over, like, being activists, but I don't know, like what... I don't know what to talk, like I don't know anything about your day to day life. I don't know what you're into or like whatever. And my biggest pet peeve with people is when I try to make small talk and they're just like... And it's like, listen, this is awkward, we both know it. So if I give you a prompt, you just need to run with it. Like we have to be in this moment together. And I just hate when people are like, won't like, I don't know. Like at that point I'm like, let's just both admit that this is not working and walk away.

Hilary [01:30:01] Yeah, the other person has to at least humor you if you're trying.

Nichole [01:30:05] Yeah. If I'm trying, it's like I don't care about what I just asked about either, but we're here so let's just give it a shot.

Hilary [01:30:13] Yeah, exactly.

Nichole [01:30:14] Yeah. Yeah, there's a few activists in particular that I like have really good chemistry with. But like any time I see them, I literally don't even know what to say to them at all. And it's funny how you can have that with certain people. It's like somehow you've gotten in each other's orbits and it's been very positive. But you're like, I don't even know what to say to you, what to ask you. I don't know where to start a conversation with you at all.

Hilary [01:30:44] Sometimes there's just, you just don't mesh with some people.

Nichole [01:30:50] Yeah.

Hilary [01:30:51] And not in a bad way. It just is not gonna happen.

Nichole [01:30:53] Yeah. Or you mesh in like certain ways, but not in other ways. Like, you know, we can be cool online or we can trade messages here and there, but like we can't hang out together.

Hilary [01:31:03] Yeah. And I always find it interesting, like I'm thinking of one of my friends in particular. Like she's just such an extrovert and she's such a social butterfly and she makes friends everywhere she goes. Like she could just be friends with anybody. And she has so many friends because of it. And if she comes to a party and there's like ten new people there, she'll be best friends with all of them by the end of the night. And like not just like superficially, like, you know, they'll be longtime friends. And I'm just like, what's wrong with me? I could never, ever do that.

Nichole [01:31:41] It's your Scorpio moon. We just want to be adored, we don't want to make any effort. Are you kidding me? Yeah, no, I've felt that way too. It's something I've had to, I mean I can be pretty charming and I can do fairly well in social situations, but I've been in enough... it's funny because occasionally I'll stumble into a situation where I'm like, oh I remember this feeling of feeling completely awkward and not knowing what to do at all.

Nichole [01:32:16] And it's interesting. Like I got very good at mingling and making friends at work conferences because, like, you have to, you know? So I learned how to talk to our clients and get them going. But it's easier because we're all in the same industry. So there are certain things that you can kind of, like I can be like, why did you become a financial advisor? How long have you been doing it? And usually from that, like, I'll pick up on something interesting and then have like an interesting conversation. But yeah, when you just have, like general people it can be really hard to... know how... I hate feeling awkward, and yet I am. And it's OK.

Hilary [01:33:01] I think it also comes down to like, like there's always that question, like, would you rather have a couple close friends or a bunch, like 20, you know, not as close friends. And to my friend, she probably operates like, you know, she'd rather have a hundred people in her life that she doesn't know very well. And for me, like that does not sound like a good time in the slightest.

Nichole [01:33:22] No.

Hilary [01:33:24] At all. So I just, I don't know how to make authentic connections with, like, a lot of people.

Nichole [01:33:33] Yeah. It's really hard.

Hilary [01:33:35] And it just, it takes a lot of energy for me to have friends. It's like, I've had to work at it to be a priority. And so I've just never prioritized getting to know a lot of people or making an effort with people if I don't really feel like it's going to go anywhere.

Nichole [01:34:01] Yeah, I had that realization. I think I may have mentioned it on the show before, but I left my job and then I left during the holidays, so it was kind of hard to know when to schedule my going away happy hour. But usually for someone who had been there that long, the happy hour would be a huge deal, and like your boss would actually fund it and would probably get you a big present. And I... It was just like humiliating, like nobody showed up. And like, my former manager did do work to get me a couple gift certificates, which was nice of her to do, but it wasn't like... you know what I'm saying? Like normally like your department head would be like, oh, like take it out of the budget and get her something really nice. And like we'll make it like a thing.

Nichole [01:34:57] And it was a series of events that happened too, like our department head left right before I left. And then there were just all these changes in management. A bunch of stuff happened so there were like multiple reasons for this. But it was just so, that was kind of one of those moments where I'm like, oh, I thought I was like really friends with these people, but I guess we weren't, you know? And it was like, well, that sucks.

Nichole [01:35:24] And I had that experience, too, when I got moved over to training. So I'd been in the operations department and I sat with these other people every day for years. And we were really, really close. I mean, like one of them, I went to her house and like cooked for her family. And like, you know, we were very close. And the second I moved departments, they stopped talking to me and I was like, why? I was just so confused by it. And I would actually make the effort, like I would go down in the morning and try to sit with them, like while they were having their coffee and they literally would turn their backs to me and just be working. And I'm like, you fuckers. I know that you're not working, like, you know, like I sat with you for years. I know that you're very fine to take a break in the morning.

Nichole [01:36:19] And I think a big part of it was just, I don't know if they were, I think maybe they were like... I hate using the word jealous because it sounds so self-serving, but I just think, like my situation had changed and there's hadn't. Even though my new job was not that great. It wasn't like I'm like, you know, up in a big fancy office now. It was like, no, I just moved floors and I'm getting paid, like, barely more than I was before. But I think it was, you know, people who are kind of in the same place for a super long time. And I think maybe were even kind of OK with it. But something about my situation changing just made me an outsider, like overnight. And that was really hard. Because these were people that I was like, oh, we'll be friends no matter what. And I had talked to them about everything under the sun. Like we'd talk about our relationships and our hobbies and all this stuff. So I was like, oh, it's not just like a work relationship. But turned out...

Hilary [01:37:20] That's the weird thing about work relationships is like, as soon as something shifts on the work end of things, or one of those people becomes your boss or... Then yeah, it all goes downhill.

Nichole [01:37:39] Mhmm. Yeah and you have the risk of like that competitiveness and comparison because you are in the same, like the thing that bonds you is also the thing that makes you in conflict with each other in some ways.

Hilary [01:37:58] Yeah. And it's sometimes like you... because of the false sense of a work friendship, you feel like you can confide in people about work and then that can backfire on you. Like that person will throw you under the bus if, you know, if it comes down to it really. And then you're kind of blindsided.

Nichole [01:38:24] That's my favorite reality TV cliché. Everyone's always throwing each other under the bus. I had an ex who hated that phrase and I would watch a lot of reality TV. And just every time someone would say it, he would say it too. He'd be like, oh man, just threw her under the bus.

Hilary [01:38:49] Exactly, yeah [inaudible].

Nichole [01:38:50] And that's like five times an episode.

Hilary [01:38:52] Yeah. Have you ever watched The Challenge?

Nichole [01:38:57] No. I haven't even heard of it.

Hilary [01:39:00] OK. It's so great. Well, every reality show is.

Nichole [01:39:05] I mean, yeah.

Hilary [01:39:06] But it's like basically, it's like competitive like head on challenges and but they're also like living in a house together and they like go head-to-head and they get eliminated and anyway. But my whole point is that, like these people are always surprised that they're like being lied to. And I'm like, you literally signed up for a reality show, so I don't know.

Nichole [01:39:30] Yeah, I don't understand what you don't get. So I know we've been going for a while. Looking to see if there's any juicy things we definitely need to cover before we wrap up. I think one note that I think we both had that I would like to at least mention is that like, I think for some people, and it sounds like we both are like this, we tend to be more vulnerable with our friends than even maybe like a romantic partner. And I know for me not having family, like I tend to be more vulnerable with my friends in a lot of different ways. Like I always have to have a friend as my emergency contact because I don't have anyone else to be that for me. So there's a lot of ways in which, like if I break up with a friend, that I just find myself in a really vulnerable spot. And I also find that that person has kind of a lot of power to, like, fuck up my life.

Nichole [01:40:37] Versus like I'm so much more guarded with romantic relationships. Like I won't even like link social media accounts with someone until we're basically engaged. You know, like I dated someone and he's like, let's follow each other's Instagram accounts, and I was like, no. Like I wouldn't tell him what it was. Because like, I don't need you spying on me. I don't need to like see yours, I just don't, no. So, yeah. So, you know, there's silly stuff like that where it's like, where we have all these pictures together and we're tagged and everything together and we have like years of like documentation of our friendship. Up to stuff that's like pretty important, like you're my emergency contact or you're the person that like if something happened, I would have depended on you. Or like we may own a business together. Like, there's a lot of ways in which I think we underestimate how much like a friendship can be really hard to actually get out of.

Hilary [01:41:37] Yep. I just saw someone ask another question, too, that would kind of-

Nichole [01:41:44] Oh, that's a good one.

Hilary [01:41:44] Yeah. I feel like if that was... what you were saying is probably a good segue into that.

Nichole [01:41:50] Yeah. So Ayoola asked, "Can you talk about things that have helped you recover from friend break ups?" which is a very good question. Would you like to start?

Hilary [01:42:03] Well...

Nichole [01:42:05] You can say no. No presh.

Hilary [01:42:11] To be honest, I've come from... My friend breakups have been a positive thing in my life that I haven't felt like I needed to recover from. So I'm probably not the best person to answer. If I'm gonna be honest.

Nichole [01:42:32] You're such a like... You're such a tough bitch. You're just like, meh.

Hilary [01:42:40] Oh, I just get over it. No, I'm just kidding.

Nichole [01:42:48] Yeah, good luck getting over me. You're like, you should ask them how they got over me!

Hilary [01:42:52] So I'm a narcissist is what you're saying.

Nichole [01:42:54] Yeah, I mean same. Oh my god.

Hilary [01:42:59] No, but I am fortunate that my friend breakups have been on my terms and that I like, come to the conclusion of it myself. That's a good spot to be in.

Nichole [01:43:15] Yeah, I think that does make a big difference, because I know some people who submitted stories, there were a few where they had like a very important long term friendship, and it ended by the other person ghosting and they still don't know why. And so I think something like that is so much different and harder to recover from than something like, yeah, like I've hit the end of my rope with this person and I've processed that they're just not a person who works for me and I ended it. Like those are two wildly different things to have to work through. And yeah, I should say that I have someone that I was incredibly close to who's been a friend of mine, I think for five, five or maybe even six years, who last year, like, we hung out and had a really good time and then has not contacted me since. And I don't know why.

Nichole [01:44:15] And it's like I'm finally starting to feel somewhat like resolved, but I have literally been like crying my eyes out for a year being like, I don't know why this person just like left my life with no word. And I feel like especially this last year, because this was someone who knew that I had left to start working for myself. We had a pandemic. We had an economic depression. You know, and like to think not only did this person disappear from my life, but they don't even care to check in and make sure I'm OK? Financially, health wise, like, however, has been really hard. And I don't even know if I have a tip for how to deal with it, it's like so... It's so hard to deal with something that's just a big giant question mark. You know?

Hilary [01:45:15] Yeah, that's the thing, if you don't have closure, it's never going to feel settled.

Nichole [01:45:20] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's wild. But, you know, I think for a lot of it, like if someone has left you, I think the best you can do is just really accept it and understand that it doesn't mean that you're like a bad person. It doesn't mean that you're fundamentally unlovable or flawed. Like, I'm very lucky to have other people in my life who really love me and that I feel safe that they're not going to do that to me. And just to kind of say, like, well, this person must have had their reasons. It sucks I don't know what they are, but I don't need to let this be like my story about myself going forward. I can know that like, this was just this one person, and it doesn't necessarily say anything about me.

Nichole [01:46:18] I think if someone's broken off a relationship with you and was honest with yo why, try to really hear that and process it. It doesn't mean that what they said was true. You know, like sometimes toxic people can stop being friends with you, and what they say is not accurate. Or you know, they, yeah. I guess a lot of it is just around like establishing your own sense of reality and making peace with that, with that reality. Just trying to do like a really deep gut check on things and say, OK, for me, this is what's true and now I'm going to accept it and I'm going to move forward. If there's something I need to learn here, I'm going to learn it. And I'm going to do my best to just kind of let the rest be what it is.

Nichole [01:47:12] I think it's OK to be hurt. I don't know that people have, like I was thinking about this when we were planning this episode and I was like, there aren't any really like songs you can listen to and cry for a friend breakup, there's not really movies. You know, like when you go through a romantic breakup, I feel like there's so much like media and stuff around how to deal with that. You can listen to, like, sad love songs and you can watch, like, rom coms and cry and kind of like process it that way. But I think with friend breakups, it's a little bit harder. We don't have really good established patterns for that. And I think like, a lot of people don't really know how to support someone through a friend breakup. But I don't think it needs to be much different than any other kind of breakup honestly.

Hilary [01:48:02] I don't think so either, yeah.

Nichole [01:48:02] Yeah. Yeah, it can be harder. Like friend breakups can be harder in a lot of ways. But I think the healing process is pretty similar to a romantic breakup or even if you've had to cut someone in your family off. You know, I think honoring what you did have with that person. Trying to avoid, like, vilifying them completely. I think just like being honest about who they are is really important. And just give yourself a lot of time to grieve and feel that that grief is like very valid.

Hilary [01:48:44] And I know you mentioned too, a part of the reason why friendship breakups are harder than romantic break ups is because when you break up with a friend, they are just out of your life. When you break up with a romantic partner, that isn't always the case. They can become your friend.

Nichole [01:49:02] Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Like, you can't recontextualize the relationship because there's nowhere for it to go really.

Hilary [01:49:12] Exactly, yeah.

Nichole [01:49:12] Yeah. So yeah, I think honoring that, that like, it's really rough to have to be like this person just has to be out of my life completely. And Ayoola said the friend breakup I'm thinking of happened two years ago. I feel like I'm 90 percent over it, but I still get sad about it sometimes. And I would say, like honor that, you know, it's a loss. It's a loss like a death. It's a loss like a romantic relationship, like anything else. And honestly, to me, it's almost kind of... Well, I guess it depends on what kind of sadness you're feeling, but I think like missing that person a little bit is kind of healthy. And a nice nod to the fact that, like, whatever you did have was valid, you know, even if it didn't work.

Nichole [01:50:07] Because that's how I feel, like I have a romantic relationship like that where, you know, it's been a very long time and I'm over it, like I don't want that person back, but I still have some mistiness for the fact that we didn't work out. And to me, it's almost nice now to be like, oh, the love that I had for this person, like something about it was very valid because it's lasted this long. But also I'm in like the healthy, self-respecting space to be like, this person is not good for me and I don't want to actually have a relationship with them. And you know, I'll be honest too, sometimes you don't feel sad. Sometimes you're just fine and relieved, and that's OK, too. I've actually had to-

Hilary [01:51:03] Yeah, that's where I'm coming from it. And that makes me, like sometimes my brain works so logically that I feel guilty for not showing more emotion for things in my life. Just things that happen to me, and then I can just kind of get over it. And I don't often give that time to mourn things. Like what's, which I think it's kind of the more socially acceptable way to do it, or kind of the more normal way to do it. And then that makes me feel guilty about not having those emotions like everybody else does, and yeah.

Nichole [01:51:44] Yeah, yeah. I go through that too, of like yeah, am I some cold robot, or like what is wrong with me? But yeah, I just want to validate for some people. I mean sometimes, I think especially if it's a relationship that was very draining, that dragged on probably a lot longer than it should have, it's actually very normal and very acceptable to just be happy and relieved and not really have to go through any kind of grieving process. And that can make you feel really weird.

Hilary [01:52:20] Yeah.

Nichole [01:52:21] Yeah. Yeah, Ayoola said, something that struck me is the thought that they could die in the pandemic and I wouldn't know. And that's how I feel about my ghosted friend, is like they could have died, I could have died, and like we wouldn't know. And it just to me, that's like, just keeps blowing my mind. Like, how can we be in a situation where we're not checking in on each other? But we are. Yeah. Yeah, I think probably for a lot of people, the pandemic really heightened a lot of this stuff, too. Just because you are dealing with so much more of a sense that someone could pass away, you know, something really big could happen. And I know for me, that was part of what actually made me more inclined to cut off this relationship, because it was kind of that clarifying lens of like shit's real right now so I don't want to do this anymore. You know, you just have less energy for the bullshit.

Hilary [01:53:30] Yeah.

Nichole [01:53:31] But I can see it could also kick up a lot of feelings if you had a friendship end, and now you're feeling isolated and things are really scary. I think it would be really normal to be having a lot of hard, like a very hard time processing that in this particular situation. Yeah, anything else, friend?

Hilary [01:53:56] I don't think so.

Nichole [01:53:58] I don't think for me either. That was pretty good. It was a longer one. Well, Hilary, do you want to promote your very cool tattoo business or your personal accounts or anything? Where do you want people to find you?

Hilary [01:54:18] My personal Instagram account is @hilary.shelby. Recently changed my username. You know when you have a username for such a long time?

Nichole [01:54:28] Yeah.

Hilary [01:54:29] You just change it and you're like, who am I?

Nichole [01:54:33] I liked your old username a lot.

Hilary [01:54:36] Yeah, and you know what was funny? What made me realize people read it differently than I meant it to be, was The Bearded Vegans had an episode once where they read off a question I had asked them. And so my old username was babyhurl, and I meant it like babygirl, but hurl because babygirl was taken. So anyway, I think Andy was like, stop chucking those babies! And I was like, people think that?!

Nichole [01:55:12] Oh my god, that's so funny. No, I totally took it as like baby hurl, and I took it as like, to me, it was so you of like, that would be your response to someone calling you baby girl or something? I don't know. It just was very, like, you. I loved it. But yeah, stop chucking those babies, Hilary. Damn.

Hilary [01:55:35] But other than that, yeah, I do a hand-poke tattoos. I'm on the east coast of Canada so I'm sure, you know - are most people from America do you find, that listen to the show?

Nichole [01:55:47] There's a good mix, but yeah I guess the concentration is in the US.

Hilary [01:55:51] Yeah.

Nichole [01:55:52] But I do have a lot of Canadian people, which is why I wanted to give you the opportunity just in case.

Hilary [01:55:58] Well, something I'm just really passionate about is like making the tattoo industry a lot more inclusive.

Nichole [01:56:04] Love that.

Hilary [01:56:05] And it's why I started tattooing. It's why I'm still doing it. It's why I'm going to keep doing it. So I do post like on my account, it's @bliss.tattoo. I post about that a lot and I share a lot of really, really cool like, artists. Like tattoo artist who are really like forging a new path in the tattoo industry, which I love. So, and they're from all over the world. So yeah, if you're interested in tattoos and inclusivity...

Nichole [01:56:35] Look me up! I think that's super cool. I don't know if I ever told you this, but we were going to get, when we were in Portland once, we were going to get like spontaneous tattoos. And because, you know, Portland is kind of like known for tattoos. And we went to this place that had really like, was like had a really good reputation. And the tattoo artist and also the person at the front desk made us so uncomfortable that we ended up just leaving.

Hilary [01:57:09] I'm glad you left.

Nichole [01:57:09] And it just very much, yeah it very much felt like, like we're too cool, you know. And like, I don't have time for this. And we were even like very nice about it. It was like, we know this is last minute, this is just kind of an impulse thing. The tattoos we wanted were not necessarily an impulse thing, but it was like going to get it was. And we we're like, if people don't have time, that's totally fine but we figured we'd stop in and see if it was possible. Like we were trying to be like really nice and like acknowledge that. And it was like, ugh, well this person is like about to take their lunch break, but maybe they could fit you in after. And it's like, well you can just say no, like it's fine.

Hilary [01:57:47] Yeah, [inaudible].

Nichole [01:57:47] And then the guy went - Yeah, and when we told him, like the idea, he was just very like... You know, about it. Like, well I don't know if like how - you know, and it's like, never mind. Please don't permanently alter my body with that attitude.

Hilary [01:58:02] Yeah. I've been tattooed by so many dickheads that I just... Like, when I first started getting tattooed, it was by men, and then I had my first experience getting tattooed by a woman and it like, it changed the game for me. I was like, oh my god, this can actually be a positive experience.

Nichole [01:58:25] Right?

Hilary [01:58:25] Because I had all negative experiences with my tattoos before that and I just accepted that that's just how it was and that's just how tattoos were. And that I just wasn't cool enough and that's fine. But then when I realized it could be different, it was like [mind blown gesture].

Nichole [01:58:40] Which is crazy because you're the coolest person I've ever met. Hilary was like, I don't know why I'm so intimidating to people. And I'm like, um because you're like, so cool. No, it's true. Like, that's what I came to realize over time because I watched a friend get tattooed at some shitty shop. I was like, why are we going here? But the guy was so rude to her. And then I ended up having my tattoo artist who technically is very skilled, he's been doing it a long time so he actually knows how to make tattoos age well and has a really good eye for that. And he really loves doing original design work and he's like very good at that. But he makes me uncomfortable just in the sense that, like, I don't know, it is just different.

Nichole [01:59:33] Like it's different when someone's doing something to your body and you're a person whose body is political. Then like, it just makes a huge difference if that person understands that or doesn't. And it sucks because like, you know, on paper, everything about him is what I would want in an artist. Like, he's very skilled, his pricing is really great and whatever. But I can't deny that like, it's a negative experience for me every time.

Hilary [02:00:03] Well, it's only like, what we grow to understand about the tattoo industry is that, only the cost, pricing and technical ability of the artist really matter, but like, that's just not true. Like client care is something that should be prioritized among all tattoo shops. Like there should be a code of ethics, just like there is for doctors or, you know. Getting tattooed is such a vulnerable experience.

Nichole [02:00:31] So vulnerable.

Hilary [02:00:33] It's so intimate, it's so vulnerable. And some people can just be like, yeah, whip off my clothes, do whatever, but not everyone's like that. And you're permanently altering someone's body, and that is a huge deal. And to not have any regard for the person, for the client, is like just absolutely not OK in my opinion. It's having that sense of client care is just as important as having safety procedures in place in tattooing, you know, in a safe way.

Nichole [02:01:04] Yeah, I totally agree. Especially when you consider that a lot of people are coming in to like, mark the death of someone that they cared about, or cover a scar or like, like I had a friend who wanted to get a tattoo on a place of her body that she historically hated that part of her body, and she was trying to change her relationship with it. Like a lot of people are doing that kind, like a tattoo is like emotional work. And then, yeah, you go to some dude who is just like, what do you want? I don't get it. Like, uhh OK, I guess I'll try to draw, you know? And you're just like, oh my god, this feels so, like a violation.

Hilary [02:01:49] It's a huge violation. I have clients come in all the time that just tell me, like almost every client has a horror story. And a lot of them, like, you know, tattoo artist they've been to in the past have questioned them about their scars, and like things that are just like so off base and unnecessary and... I love giving the power back to the clients. Like, and I love when I get people in and it's their first tattoo ever. And I'm like, OK good, this is what your experience should look like.

Nichole [02:02:24] Yeah. And you're only ever going to have a good experience. Yeah. Another thing I hate is when tattoo artists like look at your other tattoos and they're like, where did you get that? It's like leave me the fuck alone. Just do what I'm asking you to do.

Hilary [02:02:44] And people are always so excited about their own tattoos. Like, I have people come in all the time and they're like, I'm like, so do you have any other tattoos or is this your first? And they're like, yeah, I have this, and they tell me stories and I'm like, I love being able to share that with somebody. Like it's so special that you're so stoked on these tattoos you've gotten, like I don't care... [inaudible].

Nichole [02:03:04] What they look like.

Hilary [02:03:05] You know, like I don't care. If they're special to you then that's what matters.

Nichole [02:03:10] Yeah. Yeah, or it's like I do regret this tattoo and I don't need you reminding me of that. Or like I know it doesn't look great, but I like, you know, just whatever it is. It's like, I don't need you coming into my situation here and making me feel a way. I'm like trying to collaborate with you on something beautiful now, so let's do that.

Hilary [02:03:33] Yeah.

Nichole [02:03:36] All right. Well, @Hilary.Shelby, @Bliss.Tattoo on Instagram. Follow both, either or both. I'll put those links in the show notes as well. And Hilary, just thank you so much for joining me today.

Hilary [02:03:50] Thank you, this was great.

Nichole [02:03:53] This was great.

Nichole [02:04:05] Hey Pynko, thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, consider supporting it by making a monthly contribution on Patreon, by going to Patreon.com/pynkspots. You can also make a one-time donation on Venmo to @pynkspots or on PayPal by using the link in the show notes below. Your donations help support a disabled neuroqueer anarchist live off her creative work, and that's pretty damn cool.

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Friendship Breakups SUCK! with Hilary

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