Shy & Introvert Advice for Public Speaking with Pearson

Nic is joined today by comrade Pearson Bolt from Coffee with Comrades to answer a listener question:

"Do you have any tips for being shy and/or introverted and having a public platform (live streaming, podcasting, etc.)?"

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Nichole [00:00:11] Welcome to Pynk Spots, a queer anarchist space where we smash the patriarchy by celebrating what is strong about being soft. Here we'll explore what is vulnerable, raw, hurt, healed, sensual, queer and controversial. So join me and my friends from around the Internet as we talk about deep shit and prove, as Janelle Monáe said, that pink is the truth you can't hide.

Nichole [00:00:44] So hi everybody. Welcome to Pynk Spots. As you can see today, I'm joined by Pearson who is my comrade from another momrade.

Pearson [00:00:55] Hell yeah.

Nichole [00:00:56] Yeah. Pearson is from Coffee with Comrades for whoever is familiar. For those who are not, you should absolutely check it out. It's an awesome podcast. And we are both part of the Channel Zero Anarchist Network, which you should also check out because it's a collective of anarchist media, which is pretty fucking cool.

Pearson [00:01:17] It is indeed.

Nichole [00:01:18] And he also has many public platforms doing work, including teaching and community organizing. And so I thought between the two of us, we would have some pretty good insights on this topic.

Pearson [00:01:32] Yeah, for sure.

Nichole [00:01:33] Yeah. So, again, the question was, can you talk about live streaming and doing live stuff while being introverted and or shy? I want to say that for me, and I think at least in some regard for Pearson as well, this kind of is inextricable for me with also my chronic illness, with my autism. Perhaps with mental illnesses like anxiety that I might be suffering from. So we've picked a lot of advice that does tie into shyness and introversion, but will also touch on how to manage these other things as well. Because I think for a lot of people, they sort of all go hand in hand with each other.

Pearson [00:02:15] The horrific melting pot of our many different crippling anxieties.

Nichole [00:02:24] Right.

Pearson [00:02:26] You know, mental faculties. Oh goodness.

Nichole [00:02:26] The many reasons I can't get out of bed every day, yeah.

Pearson [00:02:30] Let me count the ways.

Nichole [00:02:31] Let me count the ways, yes. So Pearson had the awesome idea to start this off just sort of talking about our personal experiences and the angle that we're sort of approaching this from. So Pearson, if you wouldn't mind, I really liked your notes so if you could kick us off and just kind of talk about your background with this.

Pearson [00:02:52] Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks Nic. I'm really, really fucking excited to be here. It's always fun to collaborate with you and brainstorm and bounce ideas around so I'm pumped. At any rate, like you mentioned earlier, a lot of people are probably surprised when anyone who like does a podcast or like live streams content on YouTube - I hate that word content, I hate that I just used it but I did.

Nichole [00:03:21] You mean you don't identify as a content creator?

Pearson [00:03:25] No, absolutely not. But yeah, it's funny because like, you know, ostensibly right, you would think that people who do media work would necessarily be like super extroverted. And when I, like, told some comrades about this, this live stream and about this episode in our Discord server, people are like, wait, you're an introvert? Because like, it's funny how people act differently in different situations, right. Like you might, like, behave really differently if you're in a small group of really close and intimate friends. And you can be like really boisterous and energetic because, like, you feed off of that particular type of environment, or have an affinity for interacting in that type of way. Right, like I love being surrounded by, like a close group of friends, like three or five people. I love, like DMing, like game sessions of Dungeons and Dragons for my friends, or just sitting around on the couch and drinking coffee and talking about politics or movies or whatever.

Pearson [00:04:26] And like, it's weird - and I'm sure we'll get into this in a little bit. But like teaching is such a public-facing kind of like profession. And it's not something that I really chose to do, you know, like I kind of fell into it. And it's exhausting. Let me tell you, as someone who really values their alone time, like it is so much fucking work to just, like have, like be on. You know, like you have to, it's like it really is like flicking a switch in your neurochemistry and being like, I'm actually really excited and peppy and this is going to be fun today. And I'm not paralyzed with fear and anxiety that none of you are going to speak to me and we won't actually have a conversation.

Pearson [00:05:16] But I digress. It's funny how, you know, introversion manifests itself in these interesting ways, like a lot of times behind the scenes, right. But I think that the reason why that happens is because it's a necessarily, like a personality trait that lends itself to that. You know, like if you're an introvert, then it's because you keep to yourself, right. And so I think people have a harder time noticing, right, that you're introverted or that you can be shy or what have you, because of the fact that, if that is the case, it's because you tend to take a step back every now and then and like take care of yourself and recharge. You know what I mean?

Nichole [00:05:56] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and I have had, because I have a similar background where I was essentially a teacher, but in a corporate environment. And I got pretty good at being able to put on this teacher or trainer persona where, yeah, like high energy and like let's do it! I mean, it was never like super fake or anything, but it was definitely like, you know, I was more expressive and I was showing up in a certain way. And then for me, when I'm done, I'm done.

Pearson [00:06:32] You're fucking exhausted.

Nichole [00:06:36] Like, I'm fucking done.

Pearson [00:06:36] Totally.

Nichole [00:06:36] And it would be very hard because I would be at something like a conference or I would be hosting like a workshop. And people, you know, they feel when they get something out of what you're doing, they feel very connected to you and they want to talk to you. And I was, especially in an industry of extroverts. I mean, our clients were financial advisors who are essentially glorified salesmen. You know, like that's kind of the vibe is they're very chatty, they're very networky, so it was just this-

Pearson [00:07:07] Everyone's gotta network in that kind of a space. Brushing the elbows, trying to get a leg up on the competition.

Nichole [00:07:15] I can't tell you how many times I was asked for a business card and I was like, I don't... I don't ever remember to bring them.

Pearson [00:07:20] Dude, whenever I think of business cards, I think of that scene from American Psycho.

Nichole [00:07:25] Yes.

Pearson [00:07:25] Where Patrick Bateman is like languishing over the fact that his business card is not like the other guy, Jared Leto's character, I can't remember what that character's name is. It's been probably a decade since I watched it.

Nichole [00:07:37] Which is funny because that's kind of one of the points of the movie, is that they're all interchangeable.

Pearson [00:07:43] Yeah, for sure. Because they look pretty much identical.

Nichole [00:07:45] They do. Although it's funny too, watching that scene as a graphic designer, I'm like, I can I do sense a subtle difference. I do appreciate the thought on that one.

Pearson [00:07:58] That's funny.

Nichole [00:07:58] But anyway, yeah. So it was very hard for me because I would end a session, I would be like, wow, I did a great job, now I'm fucking done. And then people would want to come up to me and talk and like network and maybe get lunch together. And I would just be like, oh my god, I'm going to die. Like I literally gave that everything I had and now I'm done. And now everyone's like, oh, we want to hang out with you and like, be extroverted and social. And I'm just like, I know this is confusing, but like the me on stage is not me all the time. And yeah, it's been really difficult. So, and I just love that you bring up the presenting and teaching are so draining because I do think it's very hard - well I think a big problem too, is the mixing up of outgoing or well-spoken with extroversion because it's not necessarily true. A lot of introverts can be very social in their own way, are very confident and outgoing, but then we're just done. That's the difference.

Pearson [00:09:09] Yeah. It's like zero to 60. It's like sprinting instead of marathons, like doing marathons.

Nichole [00:09:15] Exactly.

Pearson [00:09:15] Right, like it's the ability to like, I can go for a little bit, but then after that I'm fucking done. I am out.

Nichole [00:09:22] I've got some juice, we can go, and then I'm done. I have to like, refuel.

Pearson [00:09:28] Yeah, for sure. I also really liked what you said about the idea of how it is kind of a persona, but it's really, part of it is accentuating personality quirks and traits that you have, amplifying those things. It's not so much that you're necessarily adopting, like you're not, like you said, it's not fake. It's still very genuine and still very sincere. It's just, you select certain characteristics and then you, like, throw those forward with everything you got. But I think it's part of, like what makes it extra, like taxing, you know what I mean?

Nichole [00:10:04] Draining, yeah.

Pearson [00:10:06] Yeah.

Nichole [00:10:07] Yeah, it's been interesting learning about masking as an autistic person because it is so similar to like how I also function as an introvert. And I'm kind of like, I don't know if there's a difference, you know? Like I've been really trying to piece apart, like, is this... I mean, I guess maybe for an autistic person, it's even more draining because there's a lot more that you have to consciously think about. Like what am I doing with my face? What am I doing with my hands? What is my tone of voice doing, you know? A lot of stuff that with other people it just comes automatically.

Nichole [00:10:41] But it is such a similar thing because it's the same for me with masking. It's not that I'm being fake. It's not that it's not me, but it's just this, I know what traits are more acceptable and which aren't so I'm like enhancing the traits that I have that are acceptable. Or I'm using them in a way that's acceptable, and I'm kind of like hiding the other stuff.

Pearson [00:11:06] That totally makes sense.

Nichole [00:11:06] And it's just very similar.

Pearson [00:11:06] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Nichole [00:11:06] And it's very draining, it's all very draining. So, yes. So, oh my god, where to even start? We have so many good things. So I had some general tips for managing, like anxiety. Or, well I had general tips, and for me a lot of these fall under what I would do to manage, like anxiety of actually doing a thing. So for me, it was really important to not have coffee or stimulants before I'm doing a thing. And honestly, at least for a few days before, I notice, for me, coffee triggers massive anxiety. It also tends to give me dry mouth. It makes me shaky, it makes me sweaty.

Pearson [00:11:59] Interesting. OK, interesting.

Nichole [00:12:00] Yeah, it's just, well and it's like a thing I have, like I think it's tied into some of my health issues that I'm just very sensitive to caffeine. So for, I want to give a caveat that I know for people with ADHD and maybe some other people, coffee can actually be useful. It can actually be a tool that makes you feel more calm and focused. So it's really just about paying attention to your body. [Pearson points at himself on video] Yeah, I was going to say, I had a feeling my little podcast partner here would be one of those people. So in that case, use the coffee, but probably still just make sure you're not overdoing it. Like don't have more than what you know is a good dose to get you focused in, but not to get to the point where you're, you know, having to go to the bathroom in an emergency kind of way or shaky or whatever might happen to you.

Nichole [00:12:53] That was really important. That really helped me a lot, because a lot of times I would have trouble sleeping the night before because I'd be anxious, and then I would use coffee in the morning to try to pep up. And then I realized that it was really hurting my presentations because it was causing a lot of tension, like it would make it harder for me to breathe. And then, like I said, I'd be sweating and I'd be shaking. And so it made it a lot harder for me to be present and calm in my presentation, and once I stopped doing it I felt like I had a lot more control.

Pearson [00:13:23] Yeah, that's super interesting. It's so funny that, well I guess it's fitting that the first bit of advice that we're talking about is coffee.

Nichole [00:13:34] It's like opposite.

Pearson [00:13:34] Yeah. Because I do approach it in kind of a different way. Like, and it's funny, I saw Stephanie mention in the chat that like, coffee can help you get into extrovert mode.

Nichole [00:13:43] Absolutely.

Pearson [00:13:43] And I know that it can do that for me at times. Especially in a coffee shop, if I'm like hanging out at a coffee shop and I'm drinking coffee, it can get me into a mood where I'm willing to, like, talk to strangers who strike up a conversation. And I'm like, I don't want to talk to you right now, I'm trying to do something. But like, you know, I can power through it or whatever. But it's interesting, too, because like, I think a lot of it depends on, like, how you think about coffee, right. Like I think, and one day we're going to do a show for Coffee with Comrades, like all about like the history and the weird settler colonialism of coffee. And also like the way that it's been used as like a tool for capitalists to extract more labor out of people. Because I think all those things are really valid and really interesting.

Pearson [00:14:34] But if you look at like coffee in the way that people are approaching coffee now, it's very ritualistic. It's like a very methodical thing. It's a very scientific thing. It's very focused on like weighing things properly and measuring things out. And I say all of this because for me, it's actually really like therapeutic and cathartic way to wake up in the morning and go through this, like, ritual of preparing coffee for myself. Which sounds like a really pretentious and bourgeois thing to say. I'm very aware of that and I'm comfortable with that because there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. But I digress.

Nichole [00:15:11] Hear, hear.

Pearson [00:15:11] Like, it really is something that like is I think really like therapeutic and cathartic for me. And so it's funny that you and I have such like divergent approaches with this first little bit of advice.

Nichole [00:15:24] Yeah. And I agree with you. When I used to drink coffee, I found it to be an incredibly comforting ritual and I really loved it. And it was something that actually really helped with my depression under capitalism. Because it gave me this thing, this really joyous, indulgent kind of thing to do first thing in the morning. Because mornings are the hardest for me. Mornings are when I'm like, I can't do this another day. I don't want to get up. You know, it's usually when my body hurts the worst. And coffee was just such a beautiful thing for me to have to be like, well if I get up, I get to have my cup of coffee. And I, you know, I usually had this ritual around like, reading my favorite blog, because I'm old. Back when blogs were a thing. And it just was just this lovely way to kind of get myself to feel good about the start of my day instead of feeling bad about it.

Nichole [00:16:19] And so, believe me that it absolutely devastated the shit out of me when I finally cut out coffee because I was having insomnia and I kept, people were like, well try cutting out coffee and see if it helps. And so I cut out coffee for like two weeks or something and then I had it. I literally had like a sip of coffee and I felt the generalized anxiety that I'd had just come crashing back in. And I was like, fuck, are you serious? Like, the coffee was causing it?! And so I still do drink it on occasion. But it's one of the things where I just have to know what the after effects are going to be and kind of choose it wisely.

Pearson [00:17:00] Yeah.

Nichole [00:17:01] Like my good friend Christian and I will go like for a beach walk and we'll get coffee to have for the beach walk. And for me it's like, that's worth it because it's such a lovely experience to have like this delicious coffee and walk on the beach.

Pearson [00:17:18] It's a social experience. It's not something that you're doing as a stimulant for yourself so that you can be more productive for your capitalist overlords.

Nichole [00:17:26] Exactly.

Pearson [00:17:26] It's something that you genuinely enjoy. And I think that it really does depend on that kind of ideological or idiosyncratic, like approach, you know, of like this is why I'm doing it. And I think being conscious of it is, like you said, it's helpful.

Nichole [00:17:41] I agree. Yeah, I had a lot of coworkers that basically abuse their bodies with coffee for capitalism, and I feel like that's just a whole different thing, you know.

Pearson [00:17:52] Yeah, like I said, we're going, it's probably going to be like a Coffee with Comrades mini-series at some point.

Nichole [00:17:58] That sounds awesome.

Pearson [00:17:59] Right? It would be fun.

Nichole [00:18:01] I will tune in for that.

Pearson [00:18:04] Hell yeah. What other advice do we have for folks?

Nichole [00:18:06] I know, I was like, I could keep talking about coffee, but I won't. So for me, and a lot of these are kind of obvious but they're also things that I had to become more serious about. Because I again, under capitalism, I think a lot of us feel rushed a lot or we kind of dismiss things that we know are important so I just want to go through. For me, eating breakfast and/or meals. Like your presentation may be later in the day so whatever it is. But like making sure to eat all of your meals is really important. I would often skip breakfast because I would be nervous and then I would get like very crashed blood sugar during my presentation and just feel like shit. Or even if I got through my presentation OK, then I would be destroyed, even more destroyed after.

Nichole [00:18:53] And for me it was also important to eat like cooked, gentle foods. Like this isn't the time to be eating like you're five alarm chili. Or even for me, like I love salads so much and so often when I had a corporate job, like I would bring a giant salad for lunch. And salads are great by eating a ton of like raw vegetables right before a presentation wasn't very grounding and sometimes can mess with your tummy if you're having issues. So especially if you're nervous. So I think like whatever foods that you love that you know are just very gentle. They always do you right, very accessible. This is a good time for sandwiches and like, easy to grab foods.

Nichole [00:19:38] I find that that's just really important. Because I've worked with a lot of people, like I have trained a lot of people to present and a lot of the people I coached very much like will do these things. Like they'll have like five cups of coffee and not eat, and then they're a fucking wreck when they go to present. And I'm like, well girl, what did you think was going to happen? But it's like it happens, you know? Also being hydrated is really important. And that's something you kind of have to start even a few days beforehand. I know for me, again, I seem to get very dehydrated when I present. Talking is very dehydrating and it took me a while to realize that. So it's important to be hydrated before you present, and also hydrate while you present.

Pearson [00:20:22] All that's super good. I always notice when I don't have water handy. Like I'll notice, like I'll start to feel faint and like my first impulse, I'm glad that I've trained myself at this point to be able to realize like, oh shit, I'm getting dehydrated, I need more water. And it's funny too because I think a lot of, and this is generally true for like a lot of this advice. And I think that like, it's interesting approaching this topic from like an anti-capitalist or a revolutionary kind of standpoint, and I think we're going to get into this more.

Nichole [00:20:58] Yes.

Pearson [00:20:58] But a lot of this sounds like liberal lifestylist sort of stuff. But I think that on the left we have like a tendency to like get into this really rigid, militant mindset where it's like anything that's about taking care of myself is somehow, you know, like bourgeois. Or like, you know, pushing back against, like, you know, self-care by saying that, like oh, that's just like something that, you know, petty bourgeois people can enjoy. And it's like, no. Like, you know, being able to like, identify some of these things and be able to like, mitigate these issues is, I think, really, really productive and healthy. Because, like, if you are entering into a community organizing space, or if you are going to a demonstration, or if you are blocking up and going to like, fuck shit up, if you're a nervous wreck about it, then your ability to actually engage and be a active participant is going to be necessarily mitigated.

Pearson [00:22:10] And so I think that, like, if we actually take these different bits of advice, both for like live streaming and just like generally taking care of ourselves, if we actually do them, and it's hard to do them. It takes like diligence and it takes practice and it takes perseverance and it takes discipline. But like, I think if you can do it, it can definitely help. And I say this as someone who fucks up all the time.

Nichole [00:22:38] Same.

Pearson [00:22:39] Like, doesn't drink water, doesn't prepare, like feels rushed in the morning. Like this is just general kind of helpful, hopefully helpful, advice for like thinking through these things if you haven't taken the time to reflect on them before.

Nichole [00:22:54] Yeah. And I like that too, because for me it is more radical than it seems on the surface because a lot of my chronic health issues have stemmed from these sorts of behaviors. You know, and I think there's a lot of people with disabilities, there's a lot of people with, you know, say IBS, you know, all kinds of different things where a lot of these behaviors that get normalized under capitalism are actually enhancing or increasing your issues. But it's framed in this way where you almost feel like it's the right thing to do, it's good to do it because you're being a good little worker bee, you know? Like it's very, at least for me, it's like it's very normalized in corporate spaces to not eat breakfast and to live off coffee.

Pearson [00:23:42] Got to grind.

Nichole [00:23:44] Yeah. And, you know, to have people like running to the bathroom because they're like shitting themselves because of like, all of this and like-

Pearson [00:23:51] Coffee is a diuretic, it's going to happen.

Nichole [00:23:52] No judgment on that because, you know, I have digestive issues, I get it. But yeah and for me, a big part of being able to start doing better self-care was a) really loving the work that I was doing and wanting to be able to show up for it in a different way. Like with the live streams, I really want to be present and I want to be as in the pocket of like doing this work as I can be. And a big part of that was like, well bitch, then you got to take care of yourself. Like you're not going to be here present if you're like thirsty and starving and, you know, like are worried that you might have to, like, go to the bathroom or whatever. So yeah, I think a lot of this stuff can come across as like liberal or just like, you know, bullshit mainstream self-care.

Pearson [00:24:41] Self-help stuff, yeah.

Nichole [00:24:41] Yes, self-help stuff.

Pearson [00:24:41] I mean, I think part of that too is because of the fact that, like, self-care has become this thing that's co-opted by the capitalist class. Because they recognized, correctly, that they can weaponize it against us and use it as a way to sell products, to create an appearance of being progressive. And I think that, like a truly revolutionary self-care understands also that it's not just about the self, right. That it is also necessarily about being in community with others and finding ways to connect with and heal with other people, right. And that it's not this purely individualist thing where you just need to consume certain things or you need to do certain things or play certain games or whatever it might be, in order to, like, take care of yourself, right. Rather, it's something that I think crucially oftentimes really happens in tandem with other people.

Pearson [00:25:35] And then the other thing I wanted to say is that, you know, an empty cup can't fill another. It's a cliché, but it's true. Like if you are running on empty, if you are, if the flag's at half mast, your ability to actually participate in the things that you care about is necessarily going to be diminished. And sometimes that's just reality and there's no escaping it. But I think that, again, like the more that we can do, right, to try and take care of ourselves and try to take care of our friends and our families and our neighbors and our comrades, the greater our collective ability will be to properly navigate the world and to combat capital and to find joy and meaning in a world that is devoid of meaning and purpose.

Nichole [00:26:30] And that's it kids, we're going to end on that happy note. Good luck.

Pearson [00:26:35] Have fun out there, y'all.

Nichole [00:26:36] I love that. That's such a meme mood.

Pearson [00:26:40] Yeah.

Nichole [00:26:41] Of like, you know, just do the best you can in this fucking hell scape. Good luck.

Pearson [00:26:44] And just rest assured that, you know, eventually you're going to die and it's all going to be OK because you won't have to worry about this ever again.

Nichole [00:26:51] Yeah, right. And God isn't real so there's no heaven, you're just dead and that's it. Good night.

Pearson [00:26:56] Yeah, you're just dead. You're just going to be buried underneath that layer of dirt. See y'all. Well that's it.

Nichole [00:27:03] Oh, what two stereotypical buckets of joy we are. Two little joyful anarchist's. All right, so for the rest of my normie tips, I'll just run through them really quickly. So for me, I think for a lot of neurodivergent people, as much as we can, prep the night before. I think we all have time optimism. I always think I can do all of these things in the morning.

Pearson [00:27:29] Oh my god, that's so true.

Nichole [00:27:32] Right? And the morning comes and then I'm a fucking mess because I've realized I have not left myself enough time to do like, half of the things I need to do. So it's, and for me again, this helps with managing anxiety specifically. So lay out your clothes, figure out what you're going to do if you wear makeup, like what you're going to do for makeup, jewelry. Like I test out and lay out as much as possible the night before, so that in the morning I feel like I know what to do, I have a plan. And then I can use that time to focus on more of like grounding kind of stuff, like taking a nice hot shower, eating a nice breakfast, hydrating enough. And versus like if I'm running around trying to figure out what to wear, or the thing I thought I was going to wear doesn't look right. Then I get into this frantic mode and then I forget to drink water, I forget to eat, and then I end up in like a really bad place.

Nichole [00:28:27] So again, it can sound really obvious, but like get all of your materials together if you're presenting and you have a presentation. Or like sometimes I'll pull up stuff on a live stream. Get all that laid out the night before, like I'll literally open tabs and then make sure that they open back up in my browser when I restart. And like that kind of thing can just help so much because you just don't know what's going to happen in the morning. And again, time optimism. It's the curse of those of us with low executive function, so.

Pearson [00:28:59] I never heard that term before but like it's-

Nichole [00:29:02] Isn't it perfect?

Pearson [00:29:03] It's perfect, yes. It literally encapsulates so much about the way that I unfortunately approach life sometimes. Like, ahhh I'll get to it, I got time.

Nichole [00:29:13] I'm like, I can definitely shower and do my makeup and get dressed and eat breakfast in 15 minutes, yeah! I have literally done that so many times because somehow in my head, like that makes sense that I could do that.

Pearson [00:29:26] Right.

Nichole [00:29:27] So yeah, I've just learned the hard way. Just what I always, how I always frame it in my own head, like when I, I'll stop myself and be like, help yourself succeed. Like help yourself... You know what I mean? Like set yourself up for success. And I don't mean it in a capitalist way, I mean it in like a self-care way. Like do whatever you can do to make life easier for yourself in the future, versus hoping that future you has the spoons to do this crazy thing that you have given your future self no time to do. So it's like being kind to your future self, like be kind in the future to yourself and help yourself get there.

Nichole [00:30:10] Light exercise, I know that can be a tricky topic, but especially for me because my body is so broken. But I do find that like it's part of not so much even the exercise itself, but it's part of this idea that, like the morning of is dedicated to things that make you feel better versus scrambling to get things put together. So like, if you can, even just stretching for me helps a lot, especially when I know I'm going to be sitting for a couple hours and the way I have to sit on this chair really hurts my back. So it's like anything to kind of just get your blood flowing a little bit, just stretch a little bit. And again, just kind of be grounded in your body can be really helpful.

Nichole [00:30:51] Pearson, you probably have experience with this too, but test out all of your equipment and all of your tech the day before.

Pearson [00:31:01] Oh my god, yes.

Nichole [00:31:02] And as far ahead the day of as you can. So like, you know, when I have a guest, I always have my guest meet me at least a few minutes early for the stream so we can test out, make sure their mic and their camera's working. I usually log in like 10 to 15 minutes before them to make sure everything's OK. And when I was a presenter, oh my god, it's like, I just would tell people, I'm like, the only thing you can depend on in training is that some piece of technology will fail you. Every single time. I don't think I've ever done a presentation where I didn't have something go wrong. So just as much as you can, like don't, again with the time optimism and just general optimism, don't necessarily trust that everything's going to work properly. Do what you can to test it out beforehand when you have time to address it.

Pearson [00:31:50] Yeah, for sure. I feel like every podcaster has a story about like nailing an awesome interview, having a cool dialog, and then all of the recordings, everything is just gone.

Nichole [00:32:08] Gone.

Pearson [00:32:09] And like it's, you know, like if you look on the bright side of life, you can be like, well I got to have this cool conversation with these people. But it's like, god damn it. Like I worked so hard and now this thing is gone.

Nichole [00:32:23] I can't tell you how many episodes I've had to rerecord. And it just like literally takes a piece of your soul. You're like, I'm just more dead inside now. I'm never going to get that back.

Pearson [00:32:32] I'm never going to be this whole again.

Nichole [00:32:37] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I have, some of these are kind of general presentation tips which I think you maybe get into a bit later?

Pearson [00:32:51] A little bit. I mean, I think that like, what you've got here is really good. And since we're already on the topic, I think you should give it to them. Give the people what they want, Nic.

Nichole [00:33:03] Give them what they want! So another big, and again, I'm just going to say, I'm not saying any of this is groundbreaking. What I'm saying is that you know this stuff and then you won't do it. So I'm here to tell you, you actually need to do it. So just, let's proceed with that understanding. This is from me being a little arrogant trainer and thinking I didn't need to do these things and then realizing I absolutely do need to do these things. And me becoming a better trainer was me putting these things into place.

Pearson [00:33:33] Right.

Nichole [00:33:33] So something that just generally helps you be better, but also is actually very, very good for managing anxiety, is practicing and having notes or AIDS for the pieces that maybe you need a bit of help with. And what I mean by practicing is like, you actually have to say the shit out loud. Like not just oh I wrote it down or I've thought about it or I have an outline, but like actually saying stuff out loud. Now, again, it kind of depends on the format. Obviously I don't rehearse like, this unscripted live stream that I do, but I've also gotten to a place where this is pretty comfortable for me and I don't really need to. But in doing especially like presentations, things that are a bit more formal. And I think also, like if you were just starting out live streaming, it still would benefit you to practice, maybe even just key sections like the intro. It is actually strangely very difficult to kick off a show, especially a live stream. It always feels so awkward.

Nichole [00:34:42] So honestly, I think for the first one, for one of my early live streams for Pynk Spots, like I actually like scripted out the intro and practiced it a few times because I knew I was going to be really nervous doing it, especially like being in a format where I was by myself all of a sudden. So this kind of thing can help a lot. And then again, if it's a formal presentation, like you absolutely have to do this. You have to practice it and say it out loud and get it to where, the reason this can help a lot is because then you, it's almost like building muscle memory for the information that you want to convey.

Nichole [00:35:18] So if something goes wrong, if you lose your place, if you get nervous, you have built up a bit of muscle memory, so to speak, where your body can kind of be like, oh I know what comes next. Versus just freezing up and being completely lost. And there's just a huge difference between kind of reading something back to yourself, like just reading something, and saying it. Especially with a live audience. Like do not underestimate how different that is for your brain and how your brain will find times to be like, I don't know what the fuck we're doing, I don't know what we're saying, I don't know where you are. Your brain is like, I'm out, like I don't know what this is, I'm done.

Nichole [00:35:59] So in that vein as well, I think it's really important to try to practice with a live audience if possible. So if you have like a friend or a partner, or maybe a smaller group of coworkers, whatever it is, who will, you know, that you know are very friendly, that you feel comfortable with. It's really good just... It's kind of like desensitization or exposure therapy I guess it's called.

Pearson [00:36:24] That's what it's like.

Nichole [00:36:25] Yeah, it's like let me just do this as close to the way that it'll be done in the real event as many times as possible before we get into it. And you'll be shocked at how much like that will really increase your confidence and really help with nerves. And this is what I'm saying from experience, this was something I knew, right? Like of course as a new trainer everyone's like, practice. And I'm like, I've got it. And then I absolutely the first time I had to do a presentation, like, completely froze up, completely lost my place, it was so embarrassing. And then, you know, over the years, had the experience of being well rehearsed and like, I'm out there just like free styling, I'm walking around the room, I'm making jokes with people. Like it's amazing how much of a difference it'll make when you just feel very confident in what you're talking about because you've actually gone through it multiple times.

Pearson [00:37:15] It's so true. Like I had the exact same experience, like teaching.

Nichole [00:37:19] Oh god.

Pearson [00:37:20] Like the first time, the very first time I went to go teach, I remember sitting down, it was like eight a.m. on a Monday morning. It was a very, it was probably like, a lot of these kids, it was probably the very first college class they'd ever taken. And I walk in and sit down and then unfortunately, the projector didn't work. First problem.

Nichole [00:37:43] See?

Pearson [00:37:43] That started an avalanche. A cavalcade of me being like, fuck, I don't know what to do. How do I do this? How do I do this? Everything I had built was reliant upon having this PowerPoint. Now I don't have the PowerPoint. I had to pull it up on my computer. I did this awkward thing where I turned my computer around so my kids - it was pathetic frankly, it was really bad. So like, I think, again, I think some of these things, for better or worse, are like outside of your control. You know, like I can't control the technology in that particular classroom the very first day of a fall semester after it's been weeks and weeks and weeks that no one's used this equipment, right. I can't control whether or not if I go to a conference and present on a paper, if anyone shows up or if it's like one person in the room or if the room is like overflowing with like a hundred people. I've had both experiences and they're both equally awful in different ways, you know.

Pearson [00:38:45] And so I think that like, having some degree of like flexibility and like understanding that, like, shit is going to go wrong. And so, like, being comfortable with that and just being like, all right, fuck it. Like, you know, and kind of like owning it in a kind of a strange way, and like pointing out when things like don't work and not making it all in your own head. But inviting the people who are there with you to like also experience it, I think is also a really helpful way to like mitigate some of the feelings of like personal failure that you like, like you feel like you fucked up in some way. But if you invite other people, like, hey come participate in this fuck up I'm having right now, then it makes it a lot more bearable.

Pearson [00:39:37] Which is again, I think one of the reasons that it's interesting kind of approaching this topic from a more communistic standpoint. Right, is that we have the ability to kind of look at these issues that would, under capitalism, be like incredibly paralyzing, individualistic failures and if possible, transform them into funny bonding experiences with people who you are going to have some kind of relationship with for at least a couple minutes when you're giving this presentation, right. Or if you're, for me for a classroom, like starting off and having that terrible first day with that class. It ended up being a really great class, we had a lot of really awesome conversations because they were like, oh, like he's just a dude. He's not like some, you know, their idea of what a professor was was absolutely shattered that day. So, you know, that's life.

Nichole [00:40:44] Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. And I, part of how I approach training, even in a corporate space, is that this is a collaborative event. This is the only time this specific event is going to happen because we're all going to be in this together and we're going to create something unique as a group. And so I agree with you like going in with that kind of mentality, including anything that goes wrong, can really help. And I've had the same, like I've said, the last year that I was at my company, I was sent all over the country to do this workshop. And so I was constantly in different hotel conference rooms, different board rooms, different, you know, like I had no control over the environment. These were all places I had never been to before. So you can imagine, basically every single location something went wrong.

Nichole [00:41:34] But as people were coming into the room, I was already, and this is another tip, like if you're shy or nervous, it can really help to instead of like trying to do your last minute prep behind the podium or whatever, it can really help to just, again, be as prepared as you can be. And then once you walk into that room, just be like, I know as much as I'm going to know. And instead of using that time to, like, frantically reread your notes or whatever, use that time to greet people as they come in. Make small talk. You know, develop some kind of rapport, whatever you're comfortable with. I know not all of us, I hate small talk, but like, I got OK-

Pearson [00:42:11] Me too, but it does help.

Nichole [00:42:12] Yeah, it does help. Like, just being like, thanks for coming and just whatever is relevant to what you're doing. But like when my advisors would come in, if I knew them, I'd be like, oh hey so-and-so, what's up, how are you doing? And if I didn't know them, I'd be like, hi, I'm the trainer today. This is my name. Like, how are you? Thank you so much for coming. Like, what got you interested in this? Because we had trainings that were free and optional, so for someone to be in my room like they had chosen to be there. So I was always like, hey, what are you interested about? And then that could help me too with the content, because as I was going along, if something came up in the content that was directly related to what someone had told me that they were interested in, I could be like, oh yeah, so Joe, this addresses like what you would come here for today and I could expand on it.

Nichole [00:43:05] So that was a big lesson for me over the years because I was that person where I would just stand behind the podium and I would be like frantically clicking through my slides and rereading my notes and like... but I was so anxious, it's like I wasn't taking in any information at all. And then I learned it was so much better to be more relaxed and have already established some kind of rapport with my audience than it was to maybe absorb one more fact, or whatever it was. Like it just, it was so much more beneficial to use that time to just be in the room with the people. And then that way, yeah, if something went wrong, I could just make a joke about it. And then, you know, usually someone would jump up and try to help me and we would just kind of get through it together. And it would just continue that feeling of like, oh we're all here and we're all human and we're just doing a thing together.

Nichole [00:43:58] And I think too, Pearson, you kind of go to the heart of something else, which I always tell people, which is that the audience basically wants you to succeed. People don't like observing-

Pearson [00:44:10] No, they hate being in that awkward, yeah, like situation.

Nichole [00:44:14] Yeah, they hate it.

Pearson [00:44:16] It's super uncomfortable.

Nichole [00:44:17] Well and they also, it's so uncomfortable, right? And so to know that the person is really nervous or to see them have like a meltdown, it's not to make anyone feel bad for doing that. But what I'm trying to say is like, I learned that if I could externally keep my cool, people would put up with almost anything because they didn't really care. They were like, oh you're having issues, OK, we'll just wait. Like, it wasn't, they weren't like, oh my god, this trainer is so unprofessional and like, who even gave her a job?! That's what I was thinking in my head. But they're just thinking like, oh, you know, these things happen and whatever, I'm just going to check emails on my phone until she says we're good to go.

Pearson [00:44:57] Right.

Nichole [00:44:57] So like, the more that you can just put yourself in that mindset of like, they don't know. They also don't know what your script is. They don't know that you fucked up your script unless you tell them, so don't tell them. You know, I just learned to be chill about like if you miss something and you realized it way later on, you can be like, oh you know what, I want to backtrack for a second, I missed an important point before. Or you can look at your upcoming information and be like, oh I could work that in here and it would make sense. But there's just so much, like you can stutter, you can say words wrong, you can lose your train of thought. Like you really can do anything, and as long as you just, kind of like Pearson said, kind of call it out, make it public. And then just sort of roll with it the best you can, people like honestly will not care. And they'll actually think that you're a really good presenter, ironically.

Pearson [00:45:49] For sure. For sure. And like, you know, even if you're not feeling confident, it can be helpful to just act like you're confident.

Nichole [00:45:56] Act like it.

Pearson [00:45:56] And just like, you know, own it. But then even if you are, like, seriously not feeling confident and you can't even pretend to be in that kind of a headspace, you can still, like, invite people into the situation that's happening.

Nichole [00:46:12] Mhmm, absolutely.

Pearson [00:46:12] And like make it not about you, but make it about the technology, or whatever it is so that the spotlight is no longer on you. Especially if you're introverted, because it's like, I don't, it's the last thing you want in the first place. Like I'm already here. I already have to give a presentation. I don't want to do this shit. But then add on top of that, right, like the fact that this thing isn't working. And I think that that kind of approach allows you to survive when these things invariably crop up.

Nichole [00:46:43] Yes. Yes. And I've even seen presenters who are just so visibly nervous, like shaking, their voices are shaking, their hands are shaking. And they end up just saying, I'm really sorry, this is my first time presenting, I'm really nervous. And it's amazing how much the crowd will just be like, you're doing great! And like everyone's on their side because it's like, we want you to succeed, you know, and they'll try to help make the person feel more comfortable and they'll give them good reviews. So it's like, yeah, just you can really be honest and invite people into whatever you're experiencing. You have to have some awareness about it and think about what's appropriate. But I'm just saying, like, if something is just happening and everyone can see it, it's OK to just call it out and it will probably help everyone, honestly.

Pearson [00:47:35] Totally. Totally. Yeah, I was just thinking, like, it's probably not a great idea to tell everyone that you just had like a bunch of, like, really spicy curry right before the presentation, but like, you know, find that line and then just stick to that.

Nichole [00:47:51] Oh my god, well unless you shit yourself in front of everyone and then you might be like, hey, I made that choice for lunch.

Pearson [00:48:03] I'm dead.

Nichole [00:48:04] And I learned from this. What can we all learn from this? What is your spicy chili?

Pearson [00:48:13] Oh my god, that's so funny.

Nichole [00:48:16] Yeah, but I mean, like in a lighter version of that, I've had times where I've been presenting and I'm like, I'm sorry I had too much coffee today. Because I'm like visibly fucking sweating. There's something about coffee that just makes me sweat, like just huge - and it doesn't smell, it's just like huge pits of water. And so I'll just be like, you know, shaky and whatever and I'll just be like, I'm sorry, I had too much coffee today. And then people like chuckle and everyone's like been there and it just makes everyone more comfortable. And then if like, I'm being a little weird, they know why I'm being a little weird and then it's fine, like it just normalizes everything, so.

Nichole [00:48:54] I also want to say, having notes or AIDS is very helpful, however, not if they're a crutch. So what I mean by this is I would rehearse my presentations. What I would do is I would script - so this is for PowerPoint, but you can, I guess, try to adjust for whatever you're doing. I would create my slides, I would put notes on the slides, and then the first time I read through it, I would just read through my notes on the slides, like I would read the notes. And then I would start to put the PowerPoint up and not be able to see the notes. And I would run through the slides and I would remember as much as I could for my notes.

Nichole [00:49:35] And then after I'd run through a few times, I would say, OK, I've got most of this down but for some reason slide 10 and slide 18, I keep missing this one thing I want to make sure I remember. So that is what I would have a note for. Is like for some reason I can't memorize a stat or I just keep forgetting to mention this on this slide, so I'm going to have a note card or something to help remind me that when I get to that slide, I need to remember to say this thing. People use notes like, oh, I don't need to remember my presentation at all, I'm just going to read my notes. That is going to make you more nervous because a crowd does not respond well to you just reading to them. You can get good at reading where people don't feel like you're reading to them, but that takes practice. So I've seen people who are like-

Pearson [00:50:21] Unless they're a bunch of kids. Like if you're doing story time at Barnes & Noble and you're like, hey look, here's some pictures, can you see?

Nichole [00:50:30] That is so cute.

Pearson [00:50:31] That's an experience I've had where they love being read to, so.

Nichole [00:50:35] Well, if we could all live off reading to kids at Barnes & Noble, I think the world would just be a better place, honestly.

Pearson [00:50:44] It would.

Nichole [00:50:44] But, so anyway, it's OK to have... And the way your slides or whatever visual aids you have should help prompt what you want to talk about, but it shouldn't be like written out on the slide. This is getting into a whole presentation design thing, but I'll just say again that, well, I used to do this kind of stuff and think that it would make me feel more confident going into a presentation because I'm like, oh I have all my notes. Like god created presenter view and trainers everywhere rejoiced. But then it was like I realized that by just sitting there and reading my notes, that I actually was giving a bad presentation and it would make me nervous as I was doing it. But if I hadn't rehearsed properly, I couldn't step away and change the dynamic of what I was doing. So that's where I just learned notes and aides are very valuable, but only if you're using them as ways to enhance or just get you through little pieces where you kind of struggle, not to be like a crutch for the whole presentation.

Pearson [00:51:49] Totally. It's very easy for them to become a prison rather than a place of helping and pushing you forward. I mean, I know that for whenever I'm doing podcast episodes, I have a shit ton of notes. But like, I don't, when I walk into like a classroom, it depends on what kind of class I'm teaching on that particular day or what, you know, if we're doing like English literature, if we're doing English composition or whatever it might be. But like generally speaking, if I walk into a classroom, I'm just like, hey, what's up? Here's what we're doing today. And it's very, very, very low key. Whereas like with a podcast, it's very detailed. And so I think finding like, you could tell from my notes for today because I write so much.

Nichole [00:52:31] Yeah.

Pearson [00:52:32] It's funny, though, because I think that there is something to be said for like different contexts are going to necessitate different types of approaches, right.

Nichole [00:52:39] Yeah. Exactly.

Pearson [00:52:40] It's going to take some practice. It's going to take some trial and error. It's going to take some experimentation. But once you figure it out, once you dial it in, your ability to navigate those distinct situations will be, you'll be much better for it. Which brings me to another point that I do just want to say real quick, which is that all of this is, if the first point that we made about the differences that you and I have with approaching the coffee didn't already make this point, right. This is all like guidelines.

Nichole [00:53:10] Yeah.

Pearson [00:53:10] Like these things, you know, you could do every single one of these things and still be like an anxious mess at the end of the day. And that's OK. You know, like that's fine. But like, figuring out what works for you, doing these experiments, practicing, all that kind of stuff. Trial and error, experimentation, will get you to a point where you can be more... I guess, like, I don't want to say positive about the experience, but like at least less concerned about it, you know what I mean?

Nichole [00:53:41] Yeah. Well, and it kind of goes back to my, this is all in my view, this is always to be kind to your future self. This is always to say, what could go wrong for my poor future self and like, what are things I can do today to maybe help that future version of me who might be in an awkward situation? And yeah, I completely agree with you. Different formats have different needs and different structures. Like I could absolutely do a podcast that I have completely written and am just reading because I know how to do that.

Pearson [00:54:19] Yeah, you know how to do the delivery for it, right?

Nichole [00:54:21] Yeah, and the format works well with that as well, because it is more detailed and especially if you're doing it by yourself. Like I've actually been really wanting to do some podcast episodes, not on a live stream because I'm like, when I do - sometimes I'll do a little custom intro or outro for the podcast version of the live stream. And there's just something about like sitting in front of the mic, there's no camera on. I get to just kind of talk sultry into the mic and say a few things. And it just, there's something really, really intimate and very relaxed, and yet somehow very formal about it that I really love. So I'm kind of kicking around the idea, like, should I just do a few podcast episodes and what would they be? But yeah, anyway, to your point, like a lot of those, I can write those out almost completely and kind of read it and that works well, but it wouldn't work well, like you said, in a classroom setting, that would be terrible.

Pearson [00:55:27] Right.

Nichole [00:55:27] And I do it for the live streams too, like the one I did about disassociation. There were so many facts that I was reading that I did actually have a lot of it scripted out. But I had run through it and like I had kind of gone through the information enough that I could sort of just look at what I had written and then say generally what it was without having to be like reading it.

Pearson [00:55:47] Right, this particular thing. Totally.

Nichole [00:55:49] Yeah. So yeah, it just all kind of depends on the format and what you need. But I think the point is, is to like, it starts with the practice and then you can kind of discover what is going to help me do this better.

Pearson [00:56:03] Totally.

Nichole [00:56:03] And just not leaning on something as a crutch because then... Is that an ableist saying? I don't know. But then you get to a point because, yeah, if it's just going to take you out, more out of the experience and disconnect you from your audience, it's going to eventually just make you feel more anxious and like decrease the effectiveness of what you're trying to do. There are a lot of people out there who just lean into being awkward weirdos. And I think what Pearson was saying is very, really getting at the heart of everything I want to say today, which is basically just give yourself the space to figure out who you are as a presenter, a live streamer, a teacher, and then develop methods around enhancing that person. Like I'm an informal person and I always need to kind of blow people's minds with something. And I like to be a little bit funny and very personable. So I'm not good at doing like a very formal, like I'm speaking from a voice of authority kind of presentation, you know?

Pearson [00:57:12] Totally.

Nichole [00:57:13] And I learned that early on. I learned that early on, but it took me a while to truly cultivate that. Like, I knew that that was the vibe that was going to be most comfortable for me. But it took me a while to be able to do that in, I hate this word, but a professional way. Like it took me a while to figure out what is the polished version of this, like laid back, funny, approachable kind of trainer that I want to be? And that works for me. And then it gave me the confidence to, you know, I obviously received a lot of training on how to present and I would do a lot of independent study on learning and presentation. But it helped me get to a point where I could listen to someone else talk and be like, that's not for me, that's not going to work for me. Because there's a lot of bullshit and really capitalist kind of information out there. But yeah, you just have to give yourself a chance to be your actual self. And a lot of the tips you receive in other spaces are to create a homogenized version of teaching. Which I fucking hate.

Pearson [00:58:19] Yeah, no for sure. And I've had experiences where I have to be a voice of authority in a certain...

Nichole [00:58:25] Me too.

Pearson [00:58:26] Because like, especially like as a teacher like that, you would think that that has to happen a lot. Pedagogically, I try to avoid that as much as possible and invite students in to participate. But sometimes like it is unavoidable that you have to speak from a place of knowledge. Not like a, like authoritarian position, where it's like I'm right and you're wrong kind of thing, but like from a place of like genuine, like authority of knowledge, right. I feel like a lot of anarchists get held up when they use the language of authority and leadership and I'm definitely like that sometimes. So I have to provide a caveat there so people don't come at me with the pitchforks and the Molotovs. But I digress.

Pearson [00:59:04] I think that, like, it is hard to get into that headspace, right. But I think you hit the nail on the head there Nic, about finding the synthesis, right, between having that kind of colloquial, earnest, genuine, sincere kind of approach. Very personable, very intimate, while also speaking from a place of knowledge and of experience and of evidence in order to back up whatever points it is that you're making. You know what I mean?

Nichole [00:59:35] Absolutely. Yeah, and being in a corporate space, it was interesting because it was a lot of... It was like the white male version of authority. Like, oh if you're at the front of the room, then you better be the biggest expert on this thing ever. And I would have a lot of guys who wanted to challenge me just because I was the person in the front of the room. And I was able to kind of hold my ground is like, well yeah, I am the person who knows this thing. Like especially the last project I worked on, I was literally the only person in the company that was fully trained on the technology. So I'm like, I am the authority on this technology.

Nichole [01:00:15] But at the same time employing some of the tactics we mentioned before of kind of like inviting the audience in and trying to create a relationship with them. And I found that I was pretty good at challenging that weird sense of like, you're at the head of the room. Because they would interpret what I was telling them as like mandates. And I'm like, no, I'm just giving you information. Do with it what you will. And once I would kind of create that space, they would relax a little bit and be like, oh OK, well I guess that's fine then. You know, and it's like yeah.

Pearson [01:00:45] Right. It's always-

Nichole [01:00:47] But they were so used to like a CEO getting up there and being like, I'm the boss, like everything, because they have to, right? There's so much male posturing that happens in corporate spaces. It's like as a CEO, I have to be the authority. I have to be flawless. I have to be saying everything that's true and changing people's minds. And so for me, part of my feminist, anarchist, queer kind of approach was like, no, I'm here to give you information that is hopefully useful to you, but I am not here to like, challenge, you know, I'm not here to try to install ideas in your head.

Pearson [01:01:21] Yeah, absolutely. It's so fascinating talking to like femme comrades and colleagues about their experiences with this subject because, like, it's totally different. Because like, I can walk into a space and I'm just afforded, right, certain like, privileges that other people don't enjoy the benefits of. And it's funny, too, because like, again, pedagogically, I seek to dismantle all of that as quickly as possible by like inviting people in, making it participatory and dialogical. But like it's so fascinating, in a really grim and fucked up way, how people's experiences are different based upon patriarchal white supremacist heteronormative ways that people are coded in society, or socialized in society.

Pearson [01:02:17] And I think that like, it is possible, depending on how much space or how much authority you're afforded when you enter into these situations, that you can begin to do the work of dismantling those types of hierarchies and prejudices. But like, you're not going to be able to do it single handedly by any stretch of the imagination. It's going to take the collaborative and participatory work of people who are in that space with you. Which is one of the reasons that I really love teaching, is because, like, part of teaching is like inviting people in to like questioning all sorts of authority. Like one of the, like on the first day of class, every year, every semester I've ever taught, I always tell my students, like, you should challenge me if you think that I am incorrect.

Nichole [01:03:07] Mm I love that.

Pearson [01:03:08] Because I am equal with all of you. Like we're all engaging in this, we're all having conversations. And I think that, like - and we're kind of getting off topic here. But I think that there's something to be said for the ways that we create space, and the ways that we enter into space. And I think that, kind of circling this back, I think that the more you can do to intentionally create a space and to hold a space that is collaborative, that is dialogical, that is anti-hierarchical or horizontal, the better.

Pearson [01:03:40] Because it can allow you to kind of enjoy the, essentially the liberty of not having to worry about being correct all of the time. And instead, you can just like, like I don't know, let's figure it out together. You know, like, it's a much more healthy way to approach life in general. And I think that that is definitely true, whether it's doing community organizing, teaching, presenting, whatever it might be. I think that the more we can do - my anarchist is coming out. The more we can do to dismantle these unjust hierarchies, the better.

Nichole [01:04:18] Yes! Always. But I think that's such a, I loved everything you said, and I think it's such a good point that, you know, because I was in a deeply, very corporate space for a long time, but I found ways to kind of queer and anarchize my environment. And your level of autonomy is going to vary on many factors. But I do think that there's ways that you can kind of bring these elements into your work, no matter how corporate it is or whatever, that it can at least, yeah, can at least give you some semblance of this sense of community building and a sense of challenging the current power structures.

Nichole [01:05:03] Part of why I love doing the workshops that I had built the last year that I was at my company was because I realized in doing the work that these men, largely, who had come to my courses were actually extremely insecure about how to talk to their clients. And so I used this technology training that I had to do to actually work a lot of that into the curriculum to help connect with them over this thing that they were afraid of but weren't allowed to say. Because if you say, as a professional, I don't know how to talk to clients, and your whole business model is around clients-

Pearson [01:05:44] Talking to clients, right.

Nichole [01:05:44] Right. Like you're going to, all these men felt like I'm going to lose, like I'm going to have a bad reputation and my peers are going to think less of me and like, I might get less support from the corporate office. And so it was my way of kind of peeling back and finding that like, there was this path that I could take, there was this approach that I could take, that was actually challenging something that these men were really afraid of. And providing them a space where it was safe to kind of explore, well, how do we talk to clients, you know?

Pearson [01:06:20] Deprogramming toxic masculinity. Let's go.

Nichole [01:06:23] Yes, exactly. And building that community and making it safe for them to feel. And they would bond with me, but they also would bond with each other in the class because it was like, oh, these are the first, these are people also doing the same work. And now I feel like I can kind of ask them for advice or I can bounce ideas off them, whereas before I felt like I couldn't. And it was really cool. And it was so heartbreaking because I would try to tell the Home Office, like, how important these workshops were in this way that just wasn't measurable.

Pearson [01:06:55] Right.

Nichole [01:06:55] And they just didn't give a shit. And I'm like, listen, your client base is hurting. Like they have basic skills that they don't know how to do and they don't feel like they can say anything. So we could create workshops around this. We can charge money for it, you know? like we can meet this need. But like, these workshops are really important. And they were just like, you know, what's the usage number? What's the adoption rate? What is the ROI? I'm like all right.

Pearson [01:07:22] What's the capitalist speak?

Nichole [01:07:26] Yeah, but I think, I mean, I'll just say I've just been kind of surprised in my life at how you can work in your radical leftist shit into a lot of spaces. You have to be clever about it and you have to have some measure of autonomy, which we don't always have. But there are a lot of surprising ways that you can kind of challenges power structures that are subtle.

Pearson [01:07:51] One hundred percent.

Nichole [01:07:51] And it's like the subtle stuff almost works better because it just permeates and no one knows that they should even be challenging it and you're like, yeah.

Pearson [01:07:59] Yeah. No, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. Do you want to talk about like more explicitly like what this kind of looks like in organizing spaces?

Nichole [01:08:10] Yeah. I want to talk about everything.

Pearson [01:08:12] Me too. I also want to do that.

Nichole [01:08:16] I hope you have some snacks ready. Let's just do an eight hour episode.

Pearson [01:08:20] Holy fuck. Like, I think... I guess a good place to start is like, I feel like a lot of people have this misconception about activism, or like what I prefer to call community organizing, where you have to, like, be some sort of a leader, right. Like, you have to be the person who knows everything, right. And I think a lot of that comes from people speaking from a place of authority, people using jargon, people using a specific type of lingo that a lot of folks may not necessarily be aware of. Right, but I think that it's helpful to think about, I mentioned this earlier. I think it's helpful to kind of deconstruct what do we mean by leadership? What do we mean by authority? Right, because I think at its best, leadership is a really capacious category. It's something that is malleable and fluid and dynamic, and it allows you to enter into different types of conditions, right, and shift the way that you approach them, right.

Pearson [01:09:21] Like I said, I have like, hang-ups with these words. But I really love the way that the Zapatistas frame the idea of leadership, which is to lead by obeying. And I think that that's like a really useful and utile way to think about leadership. Not as something where you're coming in and you have to be the person who has all the answers, the hero who solves all the problem. But rather, you are just somebody who is trying to figure out what the issue is and then respond to it, right. Like doing work, especially with like mutual aid, disaster relief, really kind of opened my eyes to the efficacy of this particular principle where we're approaching a situation where people have been impacted by a hurricane or by recession or by a pandemic, and approaching them not from a place of here's what I need to give you in order for you to be better. But instead, what is it that you need in this point? And how can I help you get it, right? What tools can I give you to equip you to take care of yourself and to take care of other people in your community, right?

Pearson [01:10:27] And I think that that kind of an approach allows you to decenter yourself, which I think is really helpful for us introverts, where we don't have to be the center. We just have to be able to, like, be good listeners, right, and be able to approach people from a place of humility and sincerity and compassion and just be like, what is it that you need? And then trying in some way, shape or form to not just give them it, but to give, but to come alongside them and find ways in which we can get free together.

Nichole [01:10:59] Oh, I love that. Yeah, I was reading something, it might have been in Queering Anarchism, but I can't remember for sure. But they were talking about the concept of leadership in, you know, like an anarchist... What's the word I'm looking for... Perspective.

Pearson [01:11:20] Affinity group?

Nichole [01:11:20] No, but it's OK, we'll get there. But, you know, they're just talking about this concept of, because there's also so much misunderstanding of people who are not anarchists that they think it's just like lawless chaos and whatever. And, you know, there was just this discussion about things like leaders or even managers, and how they, or even authority, and how those are all things that might still - might have been Thought Slime's video actually on anarchism. But how those are all things that we would still probably need. Like we still need, like subject matter experts, right? Like we're not going to not need someone who knows how to do things. It's just changing the framework of what does that knowledge get that person? And what it shouldn't get that person is power over someone else or more resources than they need.

Pearson [01:12:13] Yeah.

Nichole [01:12:14] So we can still, and then they were talking about like leadership in this kind of similar concept where a leader or even a manager might still be necessary for certain positions or certain actions, but that that person is actually more almost of an admin than anything else. Like it's a person who just is getting all the things in, kind of understanding where all the pieces are. And like you said, just meeting people's needs. Understanding like what is needed where and how do I help get it there? And it would not be a position that should hold any kind of real authority over other people in the sense of like, I can't take away your job, I can't take away your resources or your material goods.

Pearson [01:12:55] Not here to dominate you, I'm here to, like, help you in some way, shape or form.

Nichole [01:12:59] Yeah, exactly.

Pearson [01:12:59] I'm here to empower you, right. And through empowering you, I'm empowering all of us, right. We're all becoming more knowledgeable. We're all becoming more powerful and able to act in concert. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Nichole [01:13:13] Yeah. I love that.

Pearson [01:13:14] Yeah.

Nichole [01:13:14] And I think we can bring that energy, like you were getting at, to everything from teaching to organizing, you can bring that sense of like... Because I'm with you, I think it would probably surprise people how much I actually love to decenter myself from things.

Pearson [01:13:30] Right? Like people are like, what, you host a podcast, you must be like super like vain and like conceited.

Nichole [01:13:35] I'm like, no.

Pearson [01:13:38] I won't name names, but I've had conversations with people who do do podcasts who are like, yeah, I like the sound of my own voice. And I'm just like, wh-wha-what...?!

Nichole [01:13:48] Like, does not compute, OK. So, do you have, I think you had more stuff on organizing because this is really your realm of expertise.

Pearson [01:14:03] Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, like I said, the good thing about community organizing, right, is that you don't have to be the center of attention, and if you are the center of attention it is probably because you've been murdered, incarcerated or martyred, right? Like if you are the center of attention and you're still alive, that's probably not a good thing for you. And I think one of the reasons why acting as part of a crowd, right, and participating in collective action is so powerful and so emancipatory is because you can recognize in a very concrete and immediate way that you are an integral part of a concerted effort to create change. Right, it doesn't matter if you were at a rally or a demonstration or a militant march or blocking up to engage in some good old fashioned targeted property destruction, right. If you are engaging with and alongside other people, you don't have to be the focal point.

Pearson [01:14:57] And I think that that's a really, surprisingly, kind of like a really liberatory kind of thing. There's a freedom that comes from it. And I've talked about it before on Coffee with Comrades, but there is like, there's a sense of euphoria that comes from being part of a large demonstration or a march or blocking up with your comrades. There's a sense of just like, fuck yeah, we could accomplish anything! Like it's like a fucking endorphin rush. You get, like, high on it. Like, you know, it's a really, like, affirming and powerful feeling. And I think that that's the case when you are engaged in, like, large scale action.

Pearson [01:15:40] But I think it can also be the case when you are engaged in more like intimate types of action. Regardless of whether it is, you know, maybe you are at your local food pantry. Maybe you are doing community gardening, right, and you're helping a comrade who's trying to, you know, learn more about the plants that need to be, you know, put into the soil in this particular season. Maybe you are doing a art like, workshop. Maybe you are doing a prisoner letter writing campaign. Right, like all these different ways.

Pearson [01:16:17] Like, I think finding, if it's something that you struggle with, finding that thing that you can do, that you can contribute. And then doing your best to decenter yourself and empower others to do that thing as well can allow you to not have to be the person who has all of the knowledge, but can instead be a person who is coming alongside your comrades, working towards trying to accomplish something together. And I think that that can be a model for the very small scale, very intimate scale where you're, you know, in small groups like an affinity group, all the way up to mass movements. And I think that that idea is especially liberating for those of us who don't want to be in the limelight.

Nichole [01:17:04] Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I actually had some opportunity to do that in a corporate setting, and it really did... It was an incredibly bonding experience and it did lead to that feeling of euphoria and the sense that, I don't know, everyone I worked on that project with, we just had a very special bond for like ever after that. And it was just from some silly work projects, but they kind of decentered themselves. Everyone on the project was a higher rank than me, if you will. And this was, it was like a voluntary project. They took volunteers from across the company to work on the employee satisfaction survey and see like what were the major issues and is there a few things here that could really move the needle to improve things in this company?

Nichole [01:18:00] Of course it ended up being a bunch of bullshit. They just wanted to be able to say that they had had us work on this project. But, you know, I was like early in my career and I volunteered to get the experience. And it sounded like something that I'm like, well, if I can end up helping in some way, then that would be cool, you know, since I'm here anyway. But it was very cool. Yeah, a lot of other people were managers. I was just like entry level, basically, and they allowed me to lead. And then through that, I just tried to take a leadership style of like everyone had equal say. We would talk about stuff as a group.

Nichole [01:18:38] And we had this, I just remember it was such a pivotal moment for me. We had this one thing where I felt very strongly that it was important, but like two other team members didn't and they felt very strongly that it didn't - well, this is such an anarchist thing, too, that it didn't work for their teams. Right? Whereas for me, I was like, well this would work for my team. But we were trying to establish like a universal approach to all of the teams.

Pearson [01:19:09] Right. Which doesn't fit, right.

Nichole [01:19:09] Which is never going to work.

Pearson [01:19:11] Right.

Nichole [01:19:11] So I remember we were, we had such a good rapport and then we started arguing about this and it was kind of becoming a little tense and you could feel that people were starting to feel sour about it. And I just had this moment of clarity where I was like, this is literally the only thing that we're stuck on. Why don't we just let it go? So I let it go. I was like, OK, if that doesn't work for your teams, let's just let it go. And then the project just clicked along again and everything was great and we were really proud of what we came up with. And it was just such an important moment for me in leadership that it wasn't about what I thought was right from my perspective and then, as the leader, using that to get it through. It was about hearing from my team that for some people that was actually not a good solution and we needed to just scrap it and let it go, because if we were establishing universal solutions, it wasn't going to work.

Nichole [01:20:05] And it was just so, so powerful. And that's what I mean, like after that project, we would, people from that team, we would just see each other in the hallway and it was like, you know? Like we just had such a deep bond from this silly work project. But I think it was because none of us had really ever experienced working in an environment like that before and working in that kind of collaborative and very nonhierarchical kind of way. And we loved it. And we really did take our task seriously. Like shit, like we have all this feedback from people and they're telling us what doesn't work for them, and like, can we make this better?

Pearson [01:20:43] Yeah, that's beautiful. It's so interesting thinking about how we can anarchize space. And it's something that I think a lot about as a teacher in particular, because obviously I spend a lot of time in my classrooms. Even as a professor, like, you know, you're not there as much, but when you enter into that space, which is used by many different people, you necessarily are going to change it by your presence. So like thinking about ways that we organize ourselves in society can be modeled off of ways we model ourselves in smaller groups.

Pearson [01:21:19] I think it was David Graeber who had a lot to say about the ways that, like, anarchy is like the default setting for humans. Like we just like figure it out together, you know? Like that's kind of the default kind of base, right? I can't remember, he had like a particular term for it if I'm remembering correctly, somebody can look it up and put it in the chat if they want to. But there's like this way of like how human beings are kind of, it's almost like we're wired for direct democracy and for like interpersonal like-

Nichole [01:21:52] Imagine that!

Pearson [01:21:53] So weird! It's almost like we've evolved over thousands and thousands of years.

Nichole [01:21:59] You're saying it's like natural?

Pearson [01:21:59] How bizarre! God it's, yeah it's exhausting. Anyways, it is really interesting thinking about how we enter into those spaces, you know what I mean? And like how we can alter space and revolutionize or anarchize our interpersonal relationships. Which isn't like to say that, like, you know, we're going to transform the world by, you know, making this, you know, this corporate room where we're all having to meet for a meeting into a horizontal decision making space that values everybody's opinion. But it does mean that if we start to model that type of thing, we can see how it is emergent and possible, and then we can begin to replicate those things in larger and larger and larger scales, right. You're not, you're never going to be able to do something if you don't at least try to do it and stumble through it and make mistakes and fail and fail better and fail again.

Pearson [01:22:56] But I think that, like, there is something about that moment. Right, where you're like, oh shit, like we don't just have to listen to that one dude!

Nichole [01:23:10] Yeah!

Pearson [01:23:10] You're like, we can - and it's almost always a dude. We don't have to listen to that one dude, we can have like a, we can just decide for ourselves.

Nichole [01:23:17] Yeah, it's amazing.

Pearson [01:23:17] And I think that that, right, exactly. Yeah.

Nichole [01:23:22] You're like, wait, daddy isn't going to punish us? We can, we can go to bed whenever we want? What? Kevli said up in the chat, and I think this is very relevant, is that, in my experience, most people agree with anarchist views, they just get so lost in socially charged jargon that they haven't had access to learning yet. And I think a lot of what you were just saying kind of taps into that, that like yeah, like anarchism is inherent in us. That's why I like the first time I read anarchist theory, I was like, yeah. Like, you know,.

Pearson [01:23:58] This is just how humans act?

Nichole [01:24:00] Yeah, I was like do we even need to label this a thing? Like this is just how it is and how it should be. And I think like it is, yeah I did not change my company with that project, right. But I think what's important is that you can reach people that I think a lot of us, especially like hardcore anarchists, think can't be reached or don't even consider. If you're a person like I was, where you have radical left politics, but you're navigating these kind of normie spaces, there's actually so much emotion - to me, like so much of revolution is emotional. Because if you can have someone experience that feeling of camaraderie, you've got a comrade. You know, like whatever they may identify as, whatever politics or walls they may have up, like the second someone really, truly experiences like mutual aid or like community organizing, that opens massive doors for people. Because then it's not theoretical. Then it's this beautiful feeling that you want to have again.

Pearson [01:25:06] There's that beautiful Ursula K. Le Guin quote, right, "You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere." And I think that that's exactly what you're touching on there.

Nichole [01:25:18] Yeah. Yeah, you can light a fire. I've been talking to a friend about this a lot lately, and I was saying that I get really frustrated with, as much as I love a label, we all know I love a label. I love an identity. Love it. But there's something to be said for, it's so much more important to have the spirit and the feeling of a thing than it is to be like, oh, I'm a this and these are my politics. Because I think we forget, in our heady leftist spaces that can become very academic or very jargony as you pointed out, normal working class people, they don't care. They're not going to get into all of these distinctions and stuff. But they do know what feels bad in their lives. And they do know, largely, a lot of working class people know what it's like to have some measure of community support, right, because that's how a lot of us get through.

Nichole [01:26:22] So it's like, if you can just tap into that, then the rest of it falls into place pretty well. Especially I think when it comes to organizing. We don't all have to have the exact same ideology to do an action. Right, we just need to want to do the action and be able to do it in a safe and productive way. So yeah, I think for me, that's all the work that I do. And I know for other leftists, other anarchists, probably the work I do is very soft. But like that's my form of activism is to be very soft and to be like this all should make you feel empowered and connected and good. Right, like understanding the world's woes is going to make you feel like shit no matter what.

Pearson [01:27:08] Yes, one hundred percent.

Nichole [01:27:09] But discovering these ideologies and discovering things about yourself and discovering other people that have like-minded beliefs should feel good. And I just feel like a lot of leftist spaces like don't feel very good. They don't feel very connected.

Pearson [01:27:25] No, I think you're absolutely right. And I think that, you know, again, a large part of that stems from the patriarchy, like this desire that you have to be right. And that you have to perform correctly for other people. Right, like that there's like, I don't want to cast stones, but I'm going to. Like, you know, like the idea that there's like a party line that you have to subscribe to these five things in order to like be part of the club, right. It's very isolating and alienating to people.

Pearson [01:27:58] And, you know, certain left traditions will argue that like, well that's what it takes to get things done, and it's like, OK, but like what is your version of getting things done? Because if your version of getting things done is throwing people like me into the gulag, then I'm not exactly sure that I'm down for this particular type of revolution, my dude. I think there's also like a lot to say, you talked about like jargon and lingo and I think, you know, over the years that I've done community organizing and it's been... god, it's been over a fucking decade now. I'm old. I'm so old, Nic.

Nichole [01:28:35] You're not as old as me. No one is.

Pearson [01:28:38] Oh god. Regardless, like, it's weird because-

Nichole [01:28:43] But mood.

Pearson [01:28:44] Yes. No for sure. For sure. Big mood. It's funny because like people will message me over Twitter or pull me aside when we're at an action or just like, we're hanging out together and like express dismay and discomfort and anxiety over not feeling like they have like a full grasp on the proper lingo. And, you know, I think for better or worse, like the left does use like a lot of jargon. And I think that there is a way to think about this dialectically where it's a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B, it's not either or. I don't want to recommend that we should talk down to people. I think instead we should be really conscious of how our language invites folks in to collaborative spaces. Or potentially alienates them from those collaborative spaces.

Pearson [01:29:33] You know, like dropping five dollar phrases like the self-emancipation of the working classes left and right is not going to, you know, inspire the, you know, the understanding of the regular working class, right? It's going to take meeting people where they are at. And that's not to say that people can't understand what the self-emancipation of the working classes is, because it's a very, it's a relatively straightforward idea. But it takes some time to get there. And being patient with people and not beating them over the head with it, and being also, like, really diligent about making sure that we are educating ourselves as well as our friends and comrades is, I think, really, really, really important.

Pearson [01:30:17] Nic, there are few things in the world that I detest quite so much as the sort of self-righteous, smug, liberal attitude of approaching education, like saying it's not my responsibility to educate you. Like that's just like the best way to turn people off to organizing work in their community. Like we got to be like understanding and invite people in and encouraging. Like, it's just... Yeah, it strikes me that that's a great way to make sure nobody ever comes to another demo ever again. I think we might have lost Nic, y'all. Nic are you back?

Nichole [01:30:56] I'm here, can you hear me?

Pearson [01:30:58] I can. Can you hear me?

Nichole [01:30:59] Yes.

Pearson [01:31:01] OK, beautiful. Technology, we did it!

Nichole [01:31:03] I feel like we were both here. But we lost each other and now we're back.

Pearson [01:31:06] No, and like, it's funny that this happens. We should totally leave this in the podcast version because, like, look! Tech, tech, see? It happens!

Nichole [01:31:15] See?!

Pearson [01:31:16] See, people? It happens!

Nichole [01:31:19] Every stream. Every stream.

Pearson [01:31:21] That's so funny.

Nichole [01:31:21] I will constantly have guests that just disappear off the stream. And I'm like, well, I guess it's just us now until they come back. It's OK. We're going to roll with it. I think for me, what is so... It's just wild to me, radical leftism is so liberatory. I mean, that's the whole point of it. And yet in the way that a lot of people approach this kind of outreach or education, it doesn't feel liberatory. It feels like a burden. It feels like a gatekeepy thing where now I need to feel insecure because I don't know all the words or I don't have the right ideology or whatever. And I just think it's wild.

Nichole [01:32:03] Like, that is what I try to focus on with my work is, when I tell you these things, you should feel like I've answered a question you didn't even know you were asking. Right, like it should be this like woah moment when we talk about this stuff. It shouldn't be like, oh shit, this sounded kind of interesting but now I'm on Twitter and I'm seeing everyone rip each other apart and now I feel scared to say anything. And I just really love that you brought up that it's a very liberal thing, because I see it so much on the left and I'm like, this isn't it, like this isn't leftism. All of you, I fucking see you. This is a very, there's so many things we do on the left that I think are very liberal.

Pearson [01:32:50] Oh, for sure.

Nichole [01:32:51] Yeah, I think, I've been talking to my friend Andy. We might do an episode at some point about like what an ally's role is. And part of it is to fucking talk to people and explain things and be calm and be welcoming and warm. It's not to just like fuckin attack and fire everyone, like burn everyone down online. And yeah, we just, I don't know, it's weird. Like I go, Mexie and I have talked about this, but, you know, she has much more of like a traditional leftist following, especially like on Twitter. And I just like, I'm like this space is so different than the space that I'm usually in. And it's not very nice. It's not a space I feel comfortable in. It's a space where I instantly start to feel really insecure, like I'm a fake leftist or something, because I don't know all of the things people are talking about. And I'm like, well, I'm just going to go back to my soft, queer little bubble because I don't know what this all is but I don't like it.

Pearson [01:33:51] Yeah, no for sure. It is really, really, really alienating. And I think that, like, there are ways that we can, like, combat it. And I think that unfortunately, like, it's up to us. You know, like at the end of the day, like we have to intervene in it. Like and it sucks and it's frustrating but like, we have to be an alternative, right? There's that lovely anarchist idea that, like, the ends don't justify the means, the ends are the means. Right, if we want to prefigure these types of spaces, then we're necessarily going to have to create them ourselves.

Pearson [01:34:26] And so like, if you are listening to this and you find yourself in a position where you feel really overwhelmed by all the jargon or all the people who are being assholes on Twitter.com, then like there are a couple of things that you can do. I think first, especially if it's in person, is like gently interrupt your comrades and ask them to define a term, right, if it's unfamiliar to you. Like because first of all, if they're using a term and they can't define what it is for you, then they probably shouldn't be using that term in the first place. And the only reason that they're repeating it is because they heard it on Twitter.com and so they're just regurgitating it. So, you know, check your comrades and make sure that, like, you know, they're actually, you know, engaging with these ideas and in good faith.

Pearson [01:35:09] As you read theory and as you learn from your action and grow from your own experiences, be sure to diligently and humbly share your knowledge with other people so they don't find themselves in the same position that you once did. And I think also like make peace with the fact that all of this work is necessarily going to require both a lot of unlearning and learning as well. And you don't have to be an expert, right. Like find, again, find out what you're good at. Right, whether it's mutual aid projects or community gardening, community defense, communication, sabotage, reconnaissance, media, agitprop, whatever it is. Figure out what you can bring to the table and then use those skills in your own community to the best of your ability, rather than figuring out, feeling like you have to be, you know, a jack of all trades or a Renaissance man or woman or non-binary person. Like you can just do the thing that you're good at.

Pearson [01:36:12] And like it's not, and again, it's not in this like liberal, like stay in your lane kind of thing. You should always, I always encourage people, especially like my students, like learn as much as you possibly can, in every which way that you possibly can. But just because you've learned something doesn't mean that you have to be the expert on it. It's OK to still be learning and to invite other people into that learning experience with you.

Nichole [01:36:39] Yeah. I love that. It's something, I don't know if it's my autism or what, but I've always been kind of like, I know a little bit about a lot of things. And then I have my areas of expertise for sure. But like, I just find so many things interesting that other people say are boring, like other people's jobs. I think other people's jobs are so interesting. I'm always like, tell me everything about your job. And the point of that is that in my experience of just being a person who's kind of naturally curious, it's amazing how connective that can be to just be someone who's open and curious.

Pearson [01:37:17] And then I found that it can help with things like small talk and like being in a situation where you're trying to maybe... Because, you know, that's another thing with organizing that I think is hard as a shy or introverted person, is like the first time you enter a space where you're probably going to be around people who know each other really well, and it can be really hard as a new person. Maybe you, because I like to go to stuff by myself, but then I'm also like this awkward little fuck in the corner who's like, I literally don't know how to mingle. And I'll kind of just be a weirdo who just like attends the meeting and listens and then leaves because I don't know what else to do. Which actually-

Pearson [01:37:57] And then everyone thinks you're a cop.

Nichole [01:38:01] Yeah, exactly. They're like, what's this old ass-

Pearson [01:38:01] Everyone's like, you know that person sitting over there in the corner? Like, they're totally a cop.

Nichole [01:38:07] Yeah. They're like, who is this old person who thinks we don't know she's a fucking cop? And, you know, that kind of actually works for me because what I'll do is, over time I'll notice like, maybe someone talks about something that's really interesting to me and then I'll use that as a way to make a connection. So it kind of like lets me just get there in my own time. But it's hard, right. It's very intimidating to, yeah, be new in a space. And so I think like adopting a curious, open sort of mindset, both as organizers, but also as shy, introverted people, can be really helpful in just generally connecting to other people and creating a sense of community wherever you go.

Nichole [01:38:50] I've had actually really amazing conversations with like such random people that I never would have thought, because I'm just curious and I ask questions and I just really listen to what people say. And to me, that all sounds very obvious, but then again, when I get in these spaces, a lot of times that is not the vibe. The vibe is like, we assume like you don't know stuff or like that you're problematic in some way or like you haven't processed your privilege. And it's like, those things may be true, but that isn't really conductive to, or conducive to like what we're trying to do here. You know, it's like, like when I walk in the door, I shouldn't feel like you are holding this place of authority where I need to learn to be part of the space. Right, it should be like, hey comrade, come on in. And as we develop a relationship together, we both will learn and grow from that relationship.

Pearson [01:39:47] Mm hmm. Well said. Yeah, well said. I think so often we get stuck into these patterns where we think that, like, either we know nothing or we know everything. Right, and that's such a, you gotta kill the cop in your head. You know, you have to unlearn that shit. Like, you know, like of being from a position of dominating type of knowledge or authority like, and being like willing and able to engage with people and accept that you don't know something. Like all the time, like my students teach me all the fucking time about cool shit, right? Like whether it's music stuff, whether it's stuff about their different majors, whether it's the ins and outs of how they approach a particular text that we're reading.

Pearson [01:40:33] Like it's so fucking fascinating to see how bright and brilliant people are when you give them the space to flex, essentially. You know, giving people the space to show off and to make mistakes and for it to be OK for them to fail. And that it's not like a thing that they get punished for, right. You know, we started this conversation, maybe it was off stream, I can't remember. It's been a couple, we've been talking for a long-ass time at this point.

Nichole [01:41:03] It's been a little while.

Pearson [01:41:04] I can't remember if we were talking about cancel culture bullshit. I think it was before.

Nichole [01:41:11] Yeah, it was before.

Pearson [01:41:11] Yeah, yeah ,yeah. Because we were talking about The Final Straw's recent interview with Adrienne Maree Brown.

Nichole [01:41:17] So good. P.S. Everyone go check that shit out. So good.

Pearson [01:41:21] Fo sho, fo sho, shout outs to our CZN comrades, The Final Straw. But yeah, it's really interesting how these things like invade spaces that should be so liberatory and so inviting and so understanding of the fact that people are coming to this from different walks of life and from different backgrounds. And I think that we engage in this weird form of like purity politics when we police ourselves and police each other. And I think that that's not to say that, like, the left has very serious problems with misogyny, with white supremacy, with heteronormativity, that we need to tackle and that we need to dismantle and that we need to be really systematic about.

Pearson [01:42:04] That said, I also think that it behooves all of us to give folks the benefit of the fucking doubt. You know, like and, you know, if someone proves to be, you know, engaging in bad faith, whether that's because they are an agent provocateur or they're just a troll or whatever it might be, then that's a different type of situation. But I think if we could just all calm the fuck down, just a little bit. You know, just a little bit, right. Like, I love the fucking fire. Don't get me wrong, I'm fucking here for it. Like I, there is no one, I promise you. I promise you there's no one who wants to burn this shit down as much as I do. But the problem is, is that when we take that fire and we direct it against people who are trying to learn, right, people who are new, then we isolate ourselves and we alienate them and we make it so that we can't create inviting, powerful, robust movements that can actually challenge hierarchy, patriarchy, white supremacy, heteronormativity, et cetera.

Nichole [01:43:18] Yes, I love that. I think my formal 2021 mood from here on out is going to be like, calm the fuck down! You know, like telling everyone to bring it down while you're also way up here. But yeah, it's true. It's, you know, I always think about my experience the first time I hung out with like a group of queer women and the way I fucking felt. First of all, it's why I'm queer today. So thank you, ladies. But like, it was just this experience of feeling so comfortable and being exposed to, it sounds so silly and normie now. But like there was a girl there who didn't have shaved legs or armpits and she was wearing like a tank top and shorts and she had like a boyfriend. And I was like, what?! Like, you can do that?! You know?

Pearson [01:44:15] Right.

Nichole [01:44:17] But my point is, like, I hung out with these people and even though at the time I was a cis het, like I just felt so welcomed into their space. And I was being respectful right, like I wasn't trying to do anything, because I do think that's important. Like we do still have to check our privilege and make sure we're behaving properly. But the point was like, I would have thought, oh, if I go hang out with some queer people who have like always, they were like queer punks, too. So it's like super queer, super punk. And, you know, I would think like, oh I'm this fucking normie, like, I know. I would have thought, like they would have, like, I don't know, been kind of cold or kind of judgy or just like, who is this person, or thought like, what I had to say was not interesting, but that was not the experience I had.

Nichole [01:45:01] I had so much fun with them. We had these amazing conversations. We were like laughing the whole time and talking about like this huge range of things from like silly stuff to like what cupcakes we like best to, you know, they were talking about like their attraction to women and how it differs from their attraction to men and like processing all this stuff. And I was in the back being like, hmm, taking notes. But I just think like that feeling that, and I just remember feeling like I wish that I had a group like that that I could hang out with, like every day. Like I've never felt so good in my life. I just felt so comfortable in a way where, that's what I was saying before, too, it's like they answered a question I didn't even know I was asking. And something inside me just released, and I just felt like at home with these strangers. Like they were all people, I only knew one of them, really.

Nichole [01:45:52] And that's what our spaces should be like. That's what our spaces should feel like for most people when they walk into them. Digitally or in real life, is it should be this like, wow, I want to be part of this. This is amazing. I can't wait to go back. Like this just felt good. I felt like I found my people. I felt like I found something that really is filling a need that I didn't even know that I had.

Pearson [01:46:20] Yeah, well said. Well said. And I think, again, not to, you know, not to belabor the point, but I think that it's incumbent upon us to make that happen. You know, like it's not-

Nichole [01:46:32] Mhmm, one hundred percent.

Pearson [01:46:34] We can sit here and lament the fact that it's not like that all day long. And believe me, I'd be happy to do so.

Nichole [01:46:42] [laughing] Same.

Pearson [01:46:42] But the reality is that it's going to fucking stay that way until we make a concerted effort as a community to eradicate that sense of - again, I keep coming back to the idea. And I think it's because I've been recently rereading Donna Haraway's essay Situated Knowledges as I'm working on my dissertation. But there's this idea like, it really comes from this like belief that you have a scientific understanding of how society operates. And that like, I have the divine truth passed down, right. Like we've all seen the immortal science memes, I'll say no more. But when you approach it from that perspective, you take on this very patriarchal, very masculinist like kind of approach that says I have the secrets of the universe.

Pearson [01:47:40] And it's kind of understandable in a certain sense, because like, when you do begin to like, engage in rigorous social critique, it does feel like you have a superpower. It feels like you're able to like see things that are invisible, that like other people can't see. It's like that film, They Live, where the guy puts on the glasses and he's able to see shit.

Nichole [01:47:59] Spoiler alert!

Pearson [01:47:59] Right, he's able to see beyond all of the capitalist propaganda. Yes. Yes, sorry.

Nichole [01:48:04] For like a forty year old movie.

Pearson [01:48:05] Yeah, whatever. I digress. It does feel like a superpower. But I think that when we enter into organizational work communities, even just conversations with newcomers, from a place of a negative type of authority, an authority that says, "I have done the proper reading, I've been engaged in this work for such and such many years. I know what I'm talking about." It's so fucking toxic, you know? And I think that it's going to take a lot of unlearning, it's going to take a lot of work. But I think that in many ways, that's like the beauty of anarchism and one of the reasons why I'm drawn to it again and again and again, is because it's never a finished product. Like we're never going to be done, y'all. It's like a Sisyphean struggle towards attaining ever greater degrees of freedom. And I think that that, unfortunately, is a horizon that we definitely still have yet to attain.

Nichole [01:49:11] Yes. Well, I think that was a beautiful way to end it. I have so many thoughts. I'm thinking about actually putting together a program on Skillshare or something that's like, presentation skills and different types of educational advice for creating content, but like as a leftist, that gets away from the capitalist structure that most of these resources have. So we'll see if I ever get to it.

Pearson [01:49:41] No, I think that's really cool.

Nichole [01:49:43] Yeah, and I'm hoping, like, I could do some kind of thing where if someone buys it, then I can donate it as what, you know, do kind of like a sharing so it doesn't have to be closed off from people who can use it but don't have the funds.

Pearson [01:49:56] I know CZN is also, next week, it is a closed workshop, but there have been conversations about trying to open up like workshops specifically for like doing podcasting and live streaming and that sort of thing. Opening that up to other people. So I can't say for sure whether or not that's going to be a thing, we're trying to do it almost like a little pilot, next Sunday. We actually were going to do it this Sunday, and then I realized that you and I were having this conversation and I was like, oh fuck, we gotta push it back.

Pearson [01:50:28] But yeah, I think that there's a lot of space for that. And like I think the proliferation of media on the left is something that should be celebrated.

Nichole [01:50:37] Yes.

Pearson [01:50:38] And that we should try and cultivate it more because more people have insights and ideas and knowledge from their own lived experiences that I think we could all learn from.

Nichole [01:51:00] Hey Pynko, thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, consider supporting it by making a monthly contribution on Patreon by going to Patreon.com/pynkspots. You can also make a one-time donation on Venmo to @pynkspots or on PayPal by using the link in the show notes below. Your donations help support a disabled neuroqueer anarchist live off her creative work, and that's pretty damn cool.

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