Pynk Spots

Am I Still Straight if I Date a Trans Man/Woman? with Everett

April 20, 2021 Nic
Pynk Spots
Am I Still Straight if I Date a Trans Man/Woman? with Everett
Show Notes Transcript

I am joined by my friend Everett (they/them) to answer this week's question, using it as an excuse to talk about gender, queering, and heterosexualizing. 

Question from Mohera: 

I was watching TikTok and there’s a trans man I follow who put up a video about girls asking him if they are still straight if they date him. He said, “of course you are, I’m a man! Trans men are men!” 

I totally get what he’s saying but after everything you’ve talked about with queerness, I had some questions about this. I don’t want to be problematic so I’d like to hear what you think. 

While I 100% agree that trans men are men, it seems weird to me to act like a relationship with a trans man would be exactly the same as with a cis man. I think it would be a lot different to date someone who had had some of the same experiences as me and could relate to me better on those levels, and who had different life experiences from that of a cis man. It seems weird to just brush that off as the same exact thing and move on. What do you think?

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Nichole [00:00:11] Welcome to Pynk Spots, a queer anarchist space where we smash the patriarchy by celebrating what is strong about being soft. Here we'll explore what is vulnerable, raw, hurt, healed, sensual, queer and controversial. So join me and my friends from around the Internet as we talk about deep shit and prove, as Janelle Monáe said, that pink is the truth you can't hide.

Nichole [00:00:44] Hey everyone, I'm two in the pink.

Everett [00:00:47] And I am one in the stink.

Nichole [00:00:50] In reality, I am Nic. I am joined today by Everett, my dear friend and we're answering a question from our beloved Mohera.

Everett [00:01:02] Our sweet angel.

Nichole [00:01:03] Who is a member of our little community. I know, our sweet baby angel. Who's been a member of our community for quite some time. And today, Mohera asked, "I was watching Tik-Tok and there's a trans man I follow who put up a video about girls asking him if they're still strait if they date him. And he said, of course you are. I'm a man. Trans men are men." Mohera says, "I totally get what he's saying, but after everything you talked about with queerness, I had some questions about this. I don't want to be problematic so I'd like to hear what you think. While I 100 percent agree that trans men are men, it seems weird to me to act like a relationship with a trans man would be exactly the same as that with the cis man. I think it would be a lot different to date someone who had had some of the same experiences as me and could relate to me better on those levels, and who had different life experiences from that of a cis man. It seems weird to just brush that off as the exact same thing and move on, but what do you think?"

Nichole [00:02:02] So for those who are new to the show, when Mohera refers to queerness.

Everett [00:02:11] [Burping noise] Oh my god, excuse me I'm sorry. [Another burp]

Nichole [00:02:12] I'm going to leave that in.

Everett [00:02:12] Should cranberry seltzer have been my option coming in here? No, absolutely not. But I did it anyway because I'm twenty six and I'm all about me.

Nichole [00:02:25] Yep. I can't tell you how many times I've done that. I've done, drank something carbonated to have my like recording beverage and I'm like, what am I doing? Yes. So again, for those who are new here, when Mohera mentioned queerness, I've done a lot of work on all of my platforms to talk about queerness as more than just an identity that indicates that you have a non-cis gender identity or a non-heterosexual sexual identity. It's also something that can be a critical theory that's applied to the world.

Nichole [00:03:01] It is something that can be a verb, as in you're doing, you're queering things as an act of resistance. It's also a lens through which to measure societal standards at the time, because queer is inherently defined as what is outside the current norms. So it's kind of an ever-shifting, ever-changing thing that helps you take the temperature of where your culture is at at the current moment. So that's what Mohera's talking about, is that, you know, hearing this question, it pinged for her some of the things we've discussed in the past of, you know, can we always challenge what we assume to be normal? Can we challenge these kind of like easy tropes that we fall into to push the boundaries further and to make more progress as a society?

Nichole [00:03:53] So I asked Everett to join me here today because Everett is a trans nonbinary person. First of all, hello. And I myself am gender queer. I believe I'm agender, but we're still working on it. So we both talk a lot about gender because we both have gender identities that are a little complicated.

Everett [00:04:15] [laughing] Period. We both have gender identities.

Nichole [00:04:16] Yeah, exactly. And, you know, Everett just has a really great background in anthropological studies and has a lot of really... I'm always just very fascinated by their thoughts on gender and the ways that they analyze these topics. So I thought, what a great time to have this conversation about something that we're told is very simple, but I think there's a lot of space to interrogate it and say, hey, maybe this isn't as simple as we think. So, would you like to get us started?

Everett [00:04:52] Yes. So, oh also, well I mean, this is probably going to stay in, but I hope you and the audience know that I have attention deficit disorder so this is going to be raw, uncut and casual.

Nichole [00:05:11] Yes. We're very neurodivergent around here.

Everett [00:05:16] So also, well, while I have my B.A. in anthropology, and while I dipped my toe into queer theory back in the day, I wrote a couple of essays on it for classes I was in. And I think what would be helpful - oh, also I'm saying I'm not a huge expert on it. But I think when we're talking about queer theory, what queer theory is looking at more oftentimes is spaces where the way that we are talking about it is dynamics. So, I think something that's really important to highlight is that, like you were saying, queer can be an action, queer can be a verb, you know. But at the same time, on the opposite side of that, there's something that's called heterosexualization.

Everett [00:06:15] And I think, well, the thing is, the term came out in a time where queer theory in the 80s and 90s was very much centered around cis gay men, cis white gay men and cis white gay women. So while heterosexualization by sound doesn't necessarily, or just by the term itself, not its definition, sounds like it would not include like cis-sexism within heterosexualization. But when we're going to say that in this conversation, and now with all those prerequisites, let's actually get to what heterosexualization means.

Everett [00:07:02] It's really, it's just... There are many ways that it can happen, but I think the easiest way to say it is like, it is creating a space that is not necessarily welcome to queer people. Or it is intentionally building a space that has heterosexuality in mind. So, in short, heterosexualization is the development of spaces, both physical and social, that are intended for and not inclusive. Intended for cis het people and not intended for queer people. So one of the things that I read back in the day, should I have reread it before this? Yeah. But the short version of it is you look at the development of cities in the early 20th century. It's built for couples. It's either built for single people or it is built with a man and a woman and children already there or on coming in mind, you know. Whereas like, say a queer house could be something that is not structured with master bedroom, children's bedrooms in mind type of deal.

Everett [00:08:40] So yeah, but also like heterosexualization can quite literally be like, my one good example that just came up in my head is, say I had a class where one of the T.A.s was a good friend of mine. And probably like one of the few like cishet dudes I ever met that was just like, OK, got it, thank you. You know, like, he had my back. So he asked me, do you want me, for us to call out names and pronouns at the beginning of this - it was a lab type of thing. It was the one time a week thing attached to a course. And I said, yeah, sure, thank you. And the thing is, he, in a sense, was attempting to clear that space by opening up possibilities. But then, sort of the response to that was, he and I were the only ones that did our pronouns when we were introducing ourselves.

Everett [00:09:45] And also, I mean, like not to call her out or anything like that, but there was a trans woman in there who I believe basically in the summer interim, I had had a few classes with her before when she was still not presenting as a woman. And let's say like the summer over, like decided, you know what, fuck it, let's go. I don't know her life. But point being, it's like I, I was like, you and me, we're together in this, right? We're together in this, right? And then she didn't say her pronouns in that.

Everett [00:10:18] So like that's kind of like a subtle way of all of these cis people, like pushing back a little bit, you know. Trying to establish what is the standard of this space. And they were trying to say the standard of this space is one that we assume people's pronouns around these here parts type of deal, you know. And it's like, I mean, OK sometimes there is a discussion to be had. Maybe we won't get into it about entering spaces and pronouns. You know, you can think back to Natalie Wynn of ContraPoints, who was like, I don't want to go into women's spaces and have us all do names and pronouns just cause I'm here, you know? So it's not always perfect.

Everett [00:11:02] You know, I had a conversation with both of my teachers where she was like, there was a trans person in my class who wasn't out yet, didn't present with preferred pronouns, et cetera, who felt uncomfortable by the proposition of, say your name and your pronouns, introduce yourself to the class, because they weren't at a point yet where they were out, you know. But anyways, so in that class, in that moment, you know, Alex and I, the TA, we're trying to set up a boundary, set up a rule of the space that was then, kind of said, OK, anyways. You know.

Everett [00:11:48] And I think that we can look at that, or there might even be cases of just... It could be a church where they have a sermon about the gays or something like that. That can heterosexualize the space by then diminishing the possibility of any people in there that are queer coming out and saying that. Because they're just going to get pushback, there's pushback before they even say anything. So I think the short way of understanding heterosexualization to me is, it's not singular actions, it's a constant set of small actions that create an ambiance of like, cis-heteronormativity.

Nichole [00:12:38] So I'm really glad that you just brought that all up, because I do think that it's really important. And I do think part of a queer practice is actually seeing, not just how cis and straight people reinforce cis-sexism, heteronormativity and all of these things, but also how our own community can play into that as well when trying to gain access or proximity to power structures. And, you know, the pronoun conversation is one that's too big for today. But it is one that I like as an example, because it can be seen as queer to ask for pronouns, but it also could be seen as queer to say, why are the pronouns important and how do we decrease the importance of that in totality? That's the bigger fight.

Nichole [00:13:37] And it's kind of like with marriage, right? Like access to marriage, where it's more of a gay thing to want access to marriage, and it's a queer thing to say, why the fuck is the state involved in our relationships at all? So I think it's a really important thing because there's a lot of, like I just read a really beautiful book called In the Dream House, which is about a bisexual woman's relationship with a lesbian. And there is a lot of abuse in that relationship. And she talks about how there is a large issue with violence within queer relationships that we don't feel comfortable talking about because we feel like it affirms the worst beliefs about us. But it's an issue, you know?

Nichole [00:14:23] So within that space, it was interesting to read her story because the abuse that she suffered was so... Almost identical to the abuse I suffered at the hands of a cis het man. And so there's a lot of, like I've been listening to a lot of queer content creators who talk about how they feel like even in queer relationships, they've had heterosexual sex or had heterosexual dynamics. And so the boundaries, you know, the greater, more mainstream conversation just looks at identity and then assumes what that environment is like. But the reality is very different from that.

Everett [00:15:04] Or even just expects everything to fall into place. Or not even that, as much as, oh, there's queer people here? OK, status quo, still the same. You know, like especially like as, you know, this sort of queer activism is pushed forward, like... I mean, are names and pronouns good in the corporate world? Yeah. But like, it's not doing anything to like disestablish like the very gendered corporate hierarchies and dynamics of that space, you know what I mean? Like so it's like, oh yeah, we have queer people here, but like what's their voice, you know? Are you just listening to strictly what they have to say about the job or like are you taking in their perspective on it into account? Or even making them articulate things in a particular way that is then, you know, ultimately more - not edible... Palatable, by the cishet people in the room.

Nichole [00:16:10] I kind of like edible too though. It's like that cishet cannibalism. No, exactly. I mean, it's like Kamala Harris, our VP, having her pronouns in her Twitter bio. It's like, OK, props, question mark?

Everett [00:16:31] She's still a cop.

Nichole [00:16:31] Yeah exactly. So it's not to diminish, you know, something like pronouns. It's just a good example to work off of that there's a way that that can be performative and then there's the way that that can be actually queer. And there's a difference. And that's why I think queerness as a lens or as a critical theory is so important because it helps us recognize and counteract liberal Neoliberal efforts to do performative actions to get the cookies or get people off their back, when actually if you look around, nothing's changing. And it is important too, I think as, for you and I as two people whose gender is not easily defined or understood, there are things like pronouns where I've been around queer people who are like, I hate talking about my pronouns because I don't know. Like my gender is just so hard to define, it's like I don't know. So, yeah, I think just always keeping the dialog open and pushing the boundaries is super important in these conversations.

Everett [00:17:36] Exactly. And also like even this, I mean, will we ever actually answer the question? Who knows? I will say that like I've gotten to a point with my gender, we're like it's still like people directly in my life that I'm like, yes, please still continue using they/them/theirs for me, right. But like, I have like an aunt. She's my great aunt. I love her dearly, but I just don't feel like putting in the labor to like actually like get her up to speed, you know what I mean? And I'm sure it would be fine. Sometimes it's just like, you don't want to spend the breath, you know, spend the calories on just like something that's going to be an uphill battle anyways.

Everett [00:18:21] Anyways, it's like if I get misgendered at the store, like that doesn't cut me like a knife like it used to, you know. Like I'm sort of at a point where I'm just like, OK, you know, like my social and material presentation are very easy to read as like a queer cis man or something like that. But I know that that's not me. You know, like that's not like whatever cultural trappings are there that would say boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, I know who you are. Like I don't care because like I know that all that shit is bullshit in the first place, you know.

Everett [00:18:59] So, and that's the thing too is that like, I'm going to use the word "emergent" a lot in this today. And I haven't brought it up yet. But like, these things are emergent. The way that I like to think about - not saying that no one in the audience knows what the word emergence means. But I like to think of it particularly like an emergent canopy, say, that's just literally continue growing up regardless of space, type of deal. You know, it's like - and I'm talking with my hands doing this, sorry podcast listeners. It is even just like one tree edging out a little bit above another one and then one from deep in the understory, finally collecting enough energy to shoot to the top. You know, that might become prominent, but then maybe because it expended all that energy, it then, it has such a big pop and then like other trees are then going to eventually overcome it and it's going to have to do the same thing again, you know.

Everett [00:20:02] So like, and that's the thing, is like these things are always changing, you know? And it's, I even see in the groups that I'm in now, like some of the Facebook groups for trans people, there are people that are like, I don't think I'm a trans man. I think I... Or it's like, it'll be like trans men, like reclaiming femininity where prior to, they felt like they had to perform masculinity to be taken seriously as men, you know. When, you know, cis men can wear skirts and makeup and be pretty, you know. Like that's not news, you know.

Nichole [00:20:44] Anymore, at least. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, with that I guess, in regards to the conversation or the question, that is part of what I wanted to introduce here today. Is this performance and is this, you know, to me, this question and the answer both are a very young thing. And young, not necessarily meaning in the person's actual age, but to me, it sounds like a question of newness. It sounds like the straight person is new to the possibility of queerness, and it sounds like the trans person might be new to their trans identity. And so there's a lot of performance... I think there's a lot of concern about performance happening in this situation. And that's why I wanted to crack this open a little bit, because I think that there's something of a danger in telling someone what their sexual identity is. I don't think that we should ever be telling someone who or what they are.

Everett [00:22:03] Yeah, so I think - and I will put this here, where I'm going to throw the word "passible" around here and there. We're obviously, for the listeners, we're not talking about the politics of passibility. And also, like a lot of the things that I'm going to be presenting are hypothetical situations. I do not have an idea in my head of like a passible transmedicalist Blaire White type of situation going on. Like, I'm not making any statements about trans women in saying what I'm going to say.

Everett [00:22:42] But I think a way that we can talk about this, especially with esthetic attraction, is, is a regular old cishet man being attracted to a passable trans woman, as in like she is in that space, people are assuming that she's a cisgender woman? You know, that inherently is a heterosexual space in that respect, or a heterosexualized space in that respect, because people are making those assumptions about her just off the bat. Is that man, being attracted to her, queer?

Everett [00:23:24] I would personally say in that instance, not really. Because like there's, I don't want to say complications, but there's no variables in there that, at least on that side, that make it queer for him. But for the woman, what is the chance there that, you know... I think of two sort of ways that she could be in this space. Is, one, I don't give a fuck. You know, I'm a woman, here I am. Or two, you know, as a lot of trans people are, traumatized. And scared to enter these kind of spaces, you know. So, inherently like she might be having a queer experience, or she might not be too, you know.

Everett [00:24:16] And also I think too, when - I probably should have said this a little further up. But when we're talking about straight and cishet and heterosexual, I think it's important also to say that straight specifically, we're talking about heteronormative heterosexuality type of deal. Where it's not, there's never any considerations for possibility or divergence of any sort, you know. That guy going in there and being attracted to this woman is straight because he's not, there isn't any layers to it. But that's contained within him, you know. If this trans woman is going in there, you know, no quote unquote announcement, I guess you could say. No indication from her that she's trans or is a woman of trans experience. If she were to like then make that known, that would then queer his attraction to her, you know.

Everett [00:25:29] And I think more than anything, not in the sense of like... Not in the sense of like, oh, just by virtue of her being trans, it's queer. You know, it's what is going to go on with him and his reaction, you know, that is like, that's the queer stuff getting in there and mixing stuff up. But then he can then go on to perform an act of violence against her because she is trans and then that heterosexualizes the space even more, you know. So it's like, when we're coming to, like, the strict question of, oh, I'm a cishet woman and you're a trans man. I'm attracted to you. Does that make me straight or whatever? Am I still heterosexual?

Everett [00:26:25] I could even say in some cases as in like, I think you could say yes. Because part of that immediate esthetic attraction is also an assumption of genitals type of deal. So like within that person's head, they can still be, say they're undressing you with their eyes type of deal. They can be envisioning whatever's going on that they think it is type of deal. I'll say that like, I am attracted to trans men all the time, you know. But like I, and of course there is like a diversity of genitalia once T is thrown into the mix type of deal. But like, part of my esthetic attraction to them is then, oh, that's like a masculine person. I want to grind my hips on theirs type of deal, you know what I mean? Or like I want to be involved with their, with whatever, like... I want to, or what I'm seeing like in a split second, I'm seeing a masc presenting person. I'm like, OK, let me see your dick. Not literally, but like that's sort of like what I'm talking about here with esthetic attraction is that it's quick. It's not putting in a lot of thought, type of deal.

Everett [00:27:52] So, like... And that's, and you know, we could go into attraction on the other side where I am an assigned male at birth, non-binary person. I have dated, I think exclusively, like cis men. Some have fallen more into bi/pan. Some have just been, you know, called themselves strictly gay, they're just attracted to cis men type of deal. I will say that there have been times where I have been dating someone or interacted with someone where I'm like, they're approaching me like in a very, like, homonormative way, or I guess cisnormative way, you know. They think that their attraction to me or what a dynamic with me would be like is uncomplicated by my trans identity. But when that's thrown into the circle, I think that's when, you know, again, there's that situation of push and pull type of deal.

Everett [00:29:00] And some people have been, you know, like great, awesome, OK. Some people have asked more questions, said eh, not for me. But also fuck them. And so there have been that kind of stuff, but then there's, even within people that are like, OK great whatever, there was one guy that was like, I don't care what your pronouns are. And, you know, probably to cis people, that sounds like, OK, what could be wrong? But he's not saying I don't care like what your gender is, you know, like I'm attracted to you. He, I think the subtext that I read was, I see you the same regardless of your pronouns, I literally could not care. You know, you have the type of body that I am interested in.

Everett [00:29:48] And I say that in not a queer way. I say that I think that he was taking a very - and I will throw homonormative around. But it's basically, you know, or you can even see like in a gay club, push back against trans people. And that would be, you know, like you could categorize that under heterosexualizing that space. But like, they're upholding homonormativity, which is, you know, like Neoliberal white type of gay shit. Still want a picket fence and et cetera type of deal. Yeah, so like I think honestly, probably we can scoot forward and you can talk about some of your experiences where, as a queer person, you were in relationships that like, you were like, I'm here, I'm queer, but they felt heterosexual.

Nichole [00:30:40] I'm here, I'm queer. But you're not.

Everett [00:30:41] Yeah.

Nichole [00:30:46] No, that was exactly what, everything you just said brought up for me was this experience of like, I've queered my appearance a bit, but it's still, I still make cishet men very comfortable. Right, they still feel entitled to my body. They are picturing certain genitalia. They're picturing a sexual experience that would mirror every other sexual experience they've ever had.

Everett [00:31:15] Oh, sorry to, you could even throw in like you've had conversations about shaving your pubic hair or other people shaving their pubic hair as well. Like even... Well, I mean, like, you know, not necessarily saying that, like pubic hair is always queer type of deal. But like even them going into it, they might have an assumption about like what, like the landscaping of your genitals, you know what I mean.

Nichole [00:31:39] Yes, absolutely. Well, and I think body hair is very political. And I do think body hair is one of these - these landscapes, ha ha - of where, you know, in my experience as someone who thought that they were cishet and so has had a lot of quote unquote cishet relationships, like that is one of the key places that my queerness always presented itself. And it was one of the battlegrounds of the men in my life trying to exert control over my body in order to push me back into, like you were saying, they're trying to heterosexualize a relationship where I was trying to queer our relationship without maybe even knowing that that's what I was doing.

Nichole [00:32:21] And so it might sound trite, but one of the key factors for me in feeling that some of my relationships have been more queer, even though on the outside they looked very like cishet was with the men who didn't give a shit what I did with my body. That was an incredibly queer experience for me. And it also allowed me to present myself to even, you know, there's even slight things is like the way that you move your body during sex or the positions that you might take or the words that you might use to assert yourself and to get the pleasure that you want to get in the way that you want to get it. That can be very queer. Even though all the bits and pieces involved still would make God happy, you know, and yeah-

Everett [00:33:12] Yeah, I, go ahead.

Nichole [00:33:13] No, go ahead.

Everett [00:33:13] Oh, I was going to say, or like, what I wrote down is like, I think something queer as hell is autonomy. You know, like even just to shave or not shave. Or like to say, hey, I would like to try, I would like this position, like that will get me where I need to go quickly type of deal. You know, even just being able to say, like as an assigned female at birth person with a cishet man, like even just saying that could kind of be queering the space. Because, you know, the expectation is, you know, while a gal might, you know, ride on top, you know, take that split second of control... You know, women are expected to be passive in these situations, you know. Or it's like the ideal of that kind of sex is like, you know, a man taking control of, you know, like what we're doing and how we're doing it, when we're doing it, in that situation.

Nichole [00:34:09] Yes. Yes. 100 percent. And I've even had experiences of being on top where it was very performative and still very much being controlled by the man. Versus I've had times where I've been on the bottom, but been more in control of the experience and, you know, I just... Yeah, there's just so many interesting dynamics at play with that. Like, I've had times where I've sort of physically overpowered my partner in order to do what I wanted to do. And not in a violent or abusive way, but in like a sexy way. And there's men that, like, really respond to that and are like, yes, OK, we're doing this, cool. And then there's men where they're like, absolutely not. You know, like you are not going to, at no point in time is my pleasure going to be decentered from this experience.

Nichole [00:35:04] And that's the difference, versus men who are like see me pursuing my own pleasure and are very happy and excited about that. And I agree with you. I think autonomy is a huge battleground and I think consent is a huge battleground. And there's a lot of ways, for instance, like I feel that I've had very queer sexual experiences when I was practicing and asserting really good consent with a man. And that enabled them to, you know, maybe heal from some trauma to assert boundaries in ways that they hadn't been able to before, because we don't ever... We never consider that a cishet man has boundaries. Right? Or sexual trauma.

Nichole [00:35:48] But the truth is that a lot of men have sexual trauma. And the ways that we practice sex, you know, something as simple as like there's a lot of men, or I would say even people with penises, who don't like blowjobs. And yet the common narrative is that all men love head, right? Like and it would make you gay somehow, which doesn't even make sense, to not want head from a woman. And so there's a lot of men who have even trauma around that. Just this thing that they don't enjoy, that they constantly have pushed onto them. And then their partner is angry, like the women will get angry because they see it as a rejection of themselves versus just it being a normal sexual boundary that someone has.

Nichole [00:36:38] So, yeah, there's a lot of ways for me, I think I could tell a million different stories, but I think a lot of it does come down to autonomy, consent, on both ends. And because some men are not open to me trying to practice consent with them. Because, again, it's not what we're supposed to be doing, right. And it also shines a spotlight on the poor consent that they may be practicing with me. And then I would say like expression, too. Do I feel open and free to express myself? Do I feel open to be a little masculine or to, to just move in my space in a way that's natural and comfortable? And I've had relationships where I felt like that was very encouraged and very comfortable. And I've had relationships where that was definitely policed and punished on a regular basis.

Nichole [00:37:29] Like one relationship in particular with a Catholic boy, so probably no surprises there. I mean, just constant, like he would critique what pajamas I wore to bed because they weren't sexy enough. I'm very practical and that's part of, you know, I could say that's part of my gender expression or just part of my personality. Who knows? But I'm a very practical person. So, like, I wear clothes to bed that are comfortable and practical. And yeah, he wanted me to, like, sleep naked. And I was like, well, I'm not comfortable sleeping naked. And more than that, it was like, I'm not comfortable with the assertion or the implication that my body is here to be pleasing and available to you, even when I'm fucking asleep. You know, like literally 24/7.

Nichole [00:38:15] So, yeah, I think for me, those three things can come into play. And that's where I've heard from other queer people that they've been in queer, quote unquote queer relationships, but had exactly those same issues with autonomy, consent and expression that I've experienced in a cishet relationship. And then, yeah, and then you can be in a cishet relationship and feel very free and very queer and very accepted and very much like the two of you are pushing boundaries. Like I've had so many times where I was like, if someone just walked in right now, they would think this was so weird. You know, like in the best way of, you know, if someone saw my boyfriend and what he was doing right now, they would have questions, you know? But how wonderful, right? And we can move about the world and just kind of know that we have that dynamic together and that we're both safe. And yeah.

Everett [00:39:13] And I want to highlight because that's, or, two things I want to highlight here. Is that, you know, I think we didn't necessarily say it right at the top. But like when we're talking about queer spaces or something like that, even just like a bedroom occupied by two people. That can be a heterosexualized space or a queer space, really. And it took me a while to, like, really wrap my head around what all of these academic articles are trying to put jargon into just to say... Like queer spaces are ones where you can communicate, where there's freedom. As in, there are quite literally, it's quite literally expansive, you know. Where anyone and everyone can go in and explore and pursue what they want to in that space.

Everett [00:40:09] And I think like, something that you kept, or what you kept bringing up is that it's a dynamic, you know. It's a queer or straight dynamic. Because I'll say, like there were times like in my younger years where, like, I was like sexually interacting with someone and I was like, this doesn't feel right. You know, like I feel like, I don't know if it was just the ways in which I felt like I was being pursued. Like it was their interest in my genitals in a way that I didn't feel comfortable with at the time. Or whatever, you know, like this is like high school. Like but the point is, it's like, that space, despite there being two assigned male at birth people like having sexual interactions with each other, like that wasn't queer.

Everett [00:40:57] Because like, inherently there was like, whether it was bought by the partner at the time, or my inculturation and trying to stamp down all that stuff, that wasn't an expansive space for me. You know, that wasn't a space where I could get what I wanted or like even explore what I wanted or what I don't want, you know. And even like... And that's the thing, too, is like just like when we're talking about queering a space, we're not just talking about the presence of an LGBT person there, you know.

Everett [00:41:38] Like because, and that's the thing too where we're like, Colin, my boyfriend, was telling me, like there are times where he will be at work and a customer will be like super, super straight boy kind of energy, right. And Colin will throw it right back at him. And then all of his coworkers are like, you can do that? You know, but like even just that pretense of, oh I'm a dudely dude. Well, heading to Starbucks so think again. I'm a dudely dude, getting my latte, extra foam, no sugar. I don't know anything. Venti, venti! You know, like that, whether it was conscious for Colin or not, set up a particular pretense in that situation, you know. And again, I don't I haven't asked if he felt obligated to respond in that way or not. But like even then, like that's a queer man right there interacting with a straight man, but like that interaction was very straight, you know.

Everett [00:42:54] And yeah, I think, like, that's the trouble when we're getting into all of this is because, like, even with our experiences, I mean, you've gone back and forth with, like, claiming the trans label. And I'm not sure where you stand right now, but like, I'll just say, as like gender, quite literal gender space queer people, or queer space gender people, like, there's still room for us to even fit into that sort of uncomfortable heterosexual or heteronormative dynamic. And that's the thing, too, is even binary trans people can enforce that and continue it. Like, I think going back to the question, at a certain point, regardless of what the dynamic of the relationship is like, a woman or a man or a person of trans experience is inherently going to interact with the world and that relationship very differently.

Everett [00:43:54] You know, but as we were saying like that can be very internal. You can be a queer person having that very internal experience. But if it's not a space where you feel like you are able to express your needs as a trans person, or even like, say, like a demisexual person or an ace person who might only be like, I'm OK with heavy making out and heavy petting, but like anything past that, no thank you. You know, I have an ace friend who said she's like done things with people just because she felt pressured to, you know. Like at the end of the day, like just because like a cishet woman and like a trans man are in a relationship together, there can be context to that that makes it a straight relationship. Or there can be moments where it's more of a quote unquote, straight relationship than it is a queer one.

Everett [00:44:52] You know, if you are going into it and you don't, there's for whatever reason, the cishet person you're in a relationship with, nothing to them says, I have to act any differently or ask how would you like me to act? How would you like me to interact with your body? Like even then, them going into that saying, no, I don't have any questions, I'm good. I'm just going to go do things the way that I'm going to do them anyways. You know, like that, even with the acknowledgment of the person's like, trans experience, that can still be then a straight experience or a straight relationship because of that enforcement, you know.

Nichole [00:45:32] Yeah. Yeah, well and that's why this, yeah, you're straight because I'm a man, or yeah, you're straight because I'm a woman, bothers me because it just brings up some concerns for me. Because, for instance, you know, dating a trans man who is very heavily invested in everything affirming his gender, to me, sounds exactly the same as dating an insecure cis man. And that's not a good experience, right? So to me, when you're-

Everett [00:46:09] Well actually, I would like to... I think a better way to say that is like, is pursuing a very heteronormative man's presentation.

Nichole [00:46:22] Right.

Everett [00:46:22] You know, you said like pursuing what? It validates his gender. But like I think more specifically, I think what you meant is like there can still be trans men doing that in a toxic masculine way.

Nichole [00:46:35] Yeah, exactly.

Everett [00:46:36] Just to clarify.

Nichole [00:46:37] Yeah, yeah. Well, and yeah, I think there's, you know, and this is obviously extremely touchy territory here. But, you know, I've known a lot of trans masculine people who, there's... I guess what I'm saying is like, my role in previously cishet relationships was often to affirm the masculinity of my partner. And so if I'm dating a trans man who needs that same... You know, that same behavior, then that dynamic is replicated. Right, even though that's a trans person versus a cis person.

Nichole [00:47:18] So, yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. So that's why the question, the way that the answer to the question is phrased is a little concerning to me. Because, to what you were saying, if this was baby me, back in the day before I knew any of this stuff, and I went on a date with a trans man and I ignorantly kind of asked this question, that to me would say, like, you should already know how to interact with me in my body. So that to me is already introducing poor consent, and it's also creating an environment where I would feel uncomfortable. And I think something that's hard to talk about is how certain... I don't know if power dynamics is the correct term, but I have had experiences with someone who has a more marginalized identity than me, creating this kind of weird power dynamic where they're very reactionary to everything I say. And so I start to walk on eggshells and not know how to behave with that person.

Nichole [00:48:27] And that's something, I'm not saying everyone who's just like, yeah, you're still straight, is necessarily doing that, but you're not challenging this idea that this person should already know how to engage with you. Because one of the things that is very queer to me about entering a relationship or even a sexual encounter with a trans person is that often you do have conversations about language, about all kinds of things. And there's, I liked that Abigail Thorn had talked in one of her videos about, you know, there's this book that she had read about how to sleep with, how to fuck trans women. And it talks, you know, there's a lot of stuff like men who fetishize trans women always want them to perform certain activities with their genitalia that often they can't if they're on hormones.

Nichole [00:49:20] So there's just a lot, there's a lot there, right. Like you're not just engaging with this body in the same way that you have in the past. There's a lot of conversation, there's a lot of consent, there's a lot of information. And there should be the open feeling of like we can ask questions and we can be curious and we can be unsure about stuff, that to me saying, yeah, of course you're still straight, does not facilitate.

Everett [00:49:46] Exactly. Exactly. And also too, something I want to highlight about, like that Tik-Tok is like, when trans people are coming forward and trying to accomplish something, say, about the way that people are treating them or referring to them, that's political. You know. That, or let me rephrase this or reframe this. Think about the narratives of, oh, I've known since I was two that I was a woman. And not to deny that some trans people know that from a very young age and are vocal about that. But within that is a certain political presentation of trans identity of, oh, I'm just like you, it's just that my brain and my body are switched up, or something like that. You know, like it's presenting a particular sense of the world so that people treat trans people as essentially just kind of like cis people, you know. Like oh, my gender is the same as yours, it's just that my body was different.

Everett [00:51:02] Like but even then, like this whole conversation really has been about nuance and about like the minutia of our interactions type of deal. Like, oh god, I lost it. It's about like these small little interactions, but like we're still, it's impossible to not bring politics into it when you're trying to articulate something about the trans experience and existence. I think a way that I can say this is like... To quote - actually, I don't know the quote off the top of my head. Anyways, J.K. Rowling, fuck her, in one of her books was like, oh, it doesn't matter what you're born, it matters what you become.

Everett [00:51:58] You know, like again, going back to, like, considering these things as emergent, like, was there a point in my life where I was, you know, a young cis boy? Maybe. Like, I don't know. Like I can't go back and ask myself that. You know, like, can I say from the jump, I was trans, I was not binary? I can't. I don't know. No one knows. You know, and like we're, like I'm presenting myself as an adult non-binary person now. And I can talk about like in a sense like in the past I would try to perform what I thought cis gay femininity or feminine presentation was and I was trying to imitate that or mimic that. But can I say that that was a non-binary presentation? Was I experiencing gender dysphoria? Yes. But was I bringing anything about that into the dynamics of the spaces around me type of deal?

Everett [00:53:01] And again, that's the thing, it's like I don't know. Or like, the point I'm trying to get at is like, that sort of, oh, I'm a trans man and I'm a man. Period. You're straight. Or, I was, I'm born in the wrong body, or I've known since I was very young. Those are all very bio essentialist approaches to explaining trans existence. And those aren't queer! You know, like why are we trying to justify to cis people that we've been like this since the moment we were born, when even they weren't, like the way that they are now, the way they were born. You know, like the thing is, it's like gender is a lot about... Gender and sexuality is so much more than just the distilled identity. It's about how you communicate, you know. Like, and even cis men, like in high school communicating to cishet women or cishet girls, like isn't going to be the same 10 years later - it might be. It's not going to be the same 10 years later, you know.

Nichole [00:54:12] It probably will be. Everett wrote in our notes some, like was impersonating a cishet man, and was like, I have no idea how they talk. And I was like, no, actually this was quite accurate.

Everett [00:54:27] Let me see what I said. Was it in the-

Nichole [00:54:27] It's pretty far down. Ah, where was it?

Everett [00:54:27] OK.

Nichole [00:54:34] Yeah.

Everett [00:54:35] Oh, OK. So that's the thing is that like, even just like the context of these interactions can change shit around because like, and quote from the brain dumping I did on the shared Google doc, a forty five year old white cis man walking up to a 16 year old girl at a public library saying, hey baby, how's it hanging? Oh me? Down to the floor. Maybe I can show you sometime. And then in parentheses, no, I don't know how cishet men talk, but apparently that's accurate.

Nichole [00:55:05] Yeah, I was like this is actually pretty accurate.

Everett [00:55:07] Yeah. Versus like, saying the same thing to like a white cishet dude at a bar, you know. Like one's humor, one's really bad.

Nichole [00:55:18] One's illegal and one is humor.

Everett [00:55:19] One is really gross, yeah. Yeah. Where like even just like slight subtle shifts of like one person entering a room or not can change the entire dynamic, you know. But yeah, no it's like that's the thing, is like, we as gendered beings are emerging, you know. Again, fuck you, J.K. Rowling. It's not what you're born as, it's what you become. No one's born a man. No one's born a woman. I wasn't born a non-binary person. That was something that developed and grew and, again, emerged, you know.

Everett [00:55:59] Like, and that's the same thing. It's like as much as like you and I have more, I'd say conscious and deliberate approach to like autonomy in relationships, whether, you know, sexual or romantic, working, etc. like we have that very conscious sense about it, or like we are a lot more aware of how we might be received, how we are receiving stuff. I will say that like the same amount of experimentation and practice, like goes into everyone else's lives, you know. Like for like the cis people, heterosexual or not, like in the audience right now, think about like a moment where say you approach someone and you were rejected because of, say like it was a cheesy pick up line. I don't know. I don't know, again, maybe I do have a better grasp on cishet people than I thought I did.

Nichole [00:56:58] Like, I don't know what they're doing.

Everett [00:56:59] I'm just saying, I'm not sure of what I'm saying here. But like, if you were to then, that's received, that is you experimenting and then receiving feedback. And then you're going to adjust based on that, you know. Or like even success can reinforce something. And then like later feedback can change it even then. You know, like it's... Gender in terms of how we interact with each other versus just a distilled identity. Gender in the context, well, of social context. Gender in the context of space involving other people, like it's not cut and dry. You know, sexuality in that space isn't cut and dry either.

Everett [00:57:50] You know, like these are all things that are developing and they're growing. And you have some, again, trees, some shoots died, some shoots get too much sun. You know, some thrive, some will, some for blooming trees - don't ask me about it, I'm not a botanic person - some blooming trees, like a section of it might never bloom and that's OK. You know, but like, it's part of the plants of that tree's journey into - well, I mean, not to frame like our entire lives based on sexual reproduction, but you know what I mean.

Everett [00:58:26] You know, like the tree's entire life is something that goes on or even, I have a genus of plants I like called hoya. People might know them as wax plants. They're sort of, a lot of them are just viney, dangley, they have thick chubby leaves. They're very cute. They flower. Not often, but they flower, and a lot of them produce something called the peduncle, which is a separate growth structure aside from like a stem or a leaf, where flowers will come from, and in some species, will continue to come from. You know, like this plant as a sexual being, you know, that peduncle can be knocked off, you know. Not saying, you know, I'm talking about experience.

Nichole [00:59:16] I love this so much.

Everett [00:59:16] I'm not talking, I'm not saying [laughter]. But I'm sure everyone gets what I'm saying, you know. Is that, like, there was that potential there for, let's say, exploration, but it was, you know, chopped off. Or it was quite literally stunted by rejection or feedback that wasn't expected. So it's like... You know, it's like I guess the point I keep on trying to come back to is like it's all emerging. It all develops, you know? Yeah.

Nichole [00:59:45] Well yeah. And it's, part of my gender journey, if you will, is I think what complicates it so much for me is that I feel very much that a lot of what I've experienced is a reaction to what is predetermined as the categories you can fit into. And I just think if I were a person born into a time and place where we just didn't even have these labels or categories, you know, some post-cis utopia, it just wouldn't really matter. You know, I feel that my queer journey has been one of figuring out how to simply exist as my actual self. More than it is about pronouns or even expression.

Nichole [01:00:43] And that's not to discount other people's journeys that are different. But it's just to say that, like you were saying, it's very, a lot of what... Yeah, I always felt different from other people, but I can't say that I was born a different gender than the one I was assigned at birth, right. I feel that it was more a journey of just constantly rubbing up against these preconceived notions about how I should be and what I should look like and what I should do, that didn't fit. And that could be as much my autism as it is my gender identity. You know, those two things are kind of inextricable for me. Neuroqueerness is a thing, you know, and for a lot of us with brains that work differently, like gender is just not a construct we can really fucking jive with, you know?

Everett [01:01:33] Yeah.

Nichole [01:01:34] So-

Everett [01:01:35] And I-

Nichole [01:01:35] No, go ahead.

Everett [01:01:38] Oh, I was going to say too, like, things that worked for you in the past don't work now, you know.

Nichole [01:01:44] Oh, one hundred percent. One hundred percent.

Everett [01:01:45] Yeah, and it's like, or even going back to like, sharing pronouns in the class example. Like in that moment, that can be like trying to queer the space, but say 10 years down the line, we're still in like a corporate Neoliberal dystopian hell where names and pronouns are like a very normal, sharing those is like a very normal part of like a corporate environment. Like what was once a person introducing that to a group which, you know, then that was trying to queer the space, you know, whatever happened, whatever. That at a certain point is no longer queer. Because, like, it's not change, or it... It's all, again, it's all about context and dynamics, you know.

Everett [01:02:37] Like even the same day, my T.A. saying, OK everybody, names and pronouns, let's go. Versus like a group that I go to, like that was like at the Rainbow Center. So, you know, that situation with my T.A. was in action trying to queer the space. But if I go to a group at like, that was at the Rainbow Center at my university, like names and pronouns is something we do all the time, you know. It's not something that changes the space really at that point, or it's not something that necessarily opens and widens it type of deal. And also, I will say it, like I'm not saying that, like everyone just sharing their names and pronouns is the way to queer a space. There's tons of ways to do it. But, you know, that's just the example at hand.

Nichole [01:03:28] Oh yeah, it's just an easy one to, yeah, for everyone to understand.

Everett [01:03:32] Yeah.

Nichole [01:03:33] Yeah, exactly. And that's why I love talking about queerness because it is this ever-shifting thing. You know, in a queer space, doing these activities is not actually queer because it's been normalized and it's part of maintaining the queerness of the space, right. It's part of maintaining the safety of the space and the environment that you've created. But it's not a queer, in and of itself, is not a queer action. It's not queering the space. The space has already been queered.

Everett [01:04:03] Exactly.

Nichole [01:04:04] And it's done, and now it's kind of normalized.

Everett [01:04:07] Yeah. There's even a, there was a, well, I wrote, like I said, I wrote an essay, or a couple of essays, on queer theory. I kind of did revisit the same stuff a little bit out of laziness, but also so that I could approach it and understand it a bit better. There was one article that I was reading, and I might try to find these and just like, you can slap them in the notes. But basically, it was, the subject was like a lesbian bar, or a particular event at this bar. There was a 20 dollar cover. It was sort of like leather motorcycle esthetics. And this was a space where it was both social, but if you wanted, there were spaces in which you could have sex type of deal, and you could do that out in the open. I think there might have been one level that was designated, please don't fuck on here. But then there were also like other levels that were like, you can. And then, this space is almost explicitly for doing the nasty, you know.

Everett [01:05:18] The thing is, well, more of just a complaint the author put forward is like a) 20 dollar cover fee when you're trying to use like a working-class lesbian esthetic, or a working-class queer esthetic? Don't do that. Don't do that. That even there is a way that, like the space was dequeered a little bit. I won't necessarily say heterosexualized, but like that isn't a space that's open to all possibility or all possible people, you know.

Everett [01:05:54] But the major focus of the article was that this was a very, very lesbian-centric space. A very cis lesbian-centric space. You know, where something like this and that, and party being broken up and cops being involved, say like in the 70s or something like that. That getting onto national news, that could be a very queering thing. But like back then or even today, or in the time that this club was talking about, I think the event that this person participated in as an observer was like 2006/2007, so the landscape has changed a lot. But trans women in that space were actively rejected. Or like I think there was a situation where like one, like they were just not treated kindly. Like even by like staff or like other people in the space, you know.

Everett [01:06:49] So like, like that space, which from the outside might look queer on the front, because it's a bunch of like lesbian people, or lesbians, that are like interacting with each other in a very open way, which can be queer. But they were also heterosexualizing the space because there wasn't that expansiveness for trans women to be there. Or to be accepted and involved in these actions, you know. That was, like and I mean, I use the word violence here, but like I'm sure you and this audience knows that violence can be a lot of things and it can be a lot of teeny tiny things. You know, like yes. So like that was an act of violence that was, you know, or let's say, like cisseximizing the space or whatever.

Everett [01:07:44] You know, so it's like, that's the thing is like I think - and I think this is part of the whole reason we want to have this conversation in the first place, is that we don't have to say things and explain things and advocate for ourselves in ways that are just for cis people to understand. Because that's when we have these problems with optics, like talking about these situations. Where it's like, or even like a cis gay dude in one of my classes that had like acrylic nails or something like that. You know, like that can be something that adds a little spice to the space. But like that's not going to be the same in every room, you know, like...

Everett [01:08:37] Sorry, let me restart that. He can have acrylic nails, but he can still have very homonormative relationships. Or be a heterosexualizing force in spaces. Like he can still be misogynistic in a way that is trying to get women and femme people to continue acting and talking under heteropatriarchy in a certain way. You know, and I think especially distilling queerness or queer people down to an internal thing is part of that, you know. Like is part of just like trying to make it like edible/palatable for cis people, you know. Like it, and we... I don't, I don't know.

Everett [01:09:27] I don't, that's the thing is like, this is a space for talking about these things. And I think that this is probably going to spark a lot of discussion, like in the Discord or even in the comments or something like that. But like, like this conversation might go over some people's heads. Or like, or it's one of those things where sometimes you just start reading something or engaging with material and you lose the nuance in it, you know. Like, should we be having - and this isn't, that's not shade to anyone, you know. Should we be having conversations for ourselves, or should we be having conversations for cis people to not kill us?

Nichole [01:10:13] Oof, that's a question.

Everett [01:10:13] You know, like I think that's, yeah. Yeah.

Nichole [01:10:17] Well and I think, you know... Yeah, I think that question applies in a lot of spaces. It's something that Lua, Professor Flowers and I have talked about a lot. Because she, obviously as a black person, has a lot of black comrades and a lot of them are like, I don't fuck with like white people and white content creators because these spaces are just so violent against us and just so invested in upholding whiteness, right. They're not interested in dismantling that. And I feel like, yeah, same for us. And so she and I talk a lot about like, you know, she's like, I want to work with other people. I don't want to have to isolate. But at the same time, I don't want to waste my energy over here, right, with people who are just so invested in this project of whiteness.

Nichole [01:11:14] And I think it's the same for us. Like, what are we - and I guess that is my question to this question. Well, to the person answering the question, is what are we trying to do here? What are we actually trying to accomplish? And that's what I mean when to me it seems like sort of a younger and more insecure answer. I don't mean that offensively. I mean that with a lot of love and like, and personal experience of that, in the beginning, a lot of what you're trying to do is just affirm yourself and survive, yeah. And then as you progress, often, not always, but often, you start to then embrace nuance and you start then, you know, be a trans man who's fine having long, luscious hair because you've realized that that doesn't define your sexuality - or not your sexuality, but your maybe your sexuality. But also your gender.

Nichole [01:12:11] Right, like you soften a bit. And I think a lot of what happens in those first few years especially, it's like a wildfire. It's just, it's so urgent and it's so sensitive and it's so vulnerable and it changes a lot. And that's why I don't like the standard answer to this question because it doesn't allow for that change, that you even yourself are definitely going to go through. You know, it doesn't allow for your partner to have space for their changes that they may go through.

Nichole [01:12:47] And I think for, like for me, I'm actually excited by the potential to queer someone else with the experiences that we have together because I think we should queer everything. But I know for some people, the idea that they might queer someone else feels very dysphoric. And I can have sympathy for that big time while also saying that, you know, just process that. Like, where is that coming from? And like you were saying, that's largely going to be coming from this trying to get proximity to cisness. Which is understandable but really is not something we should be doing because it's never going to actually dismantle the oppressive structures that do violence upon us.

Everett [01:13:42] Yeah, like a trans woman doing well or a trans man doing well in the corporate world, what does that do for, like, more like explicitly gender-nonconforming people? You know, like, because like, again, Blaire White. We don't have to go into it. But like, her, do you know Alok V Menon?

Nichole [01:14:05] I don't think so.

Everett [01:14:06] Artist, poet? They are a AMAB trans fem of Indian, so as in the subcontinent of India, the country of India, descent. And they have very strong stubble. They have a lot of body hair, you know. And do present in this very camp in the sense of full of joy, colorful, you know, like expressive, flowy, all kinds of stuff really. Like these really like interesting fashions, you know. And, like Blaire had a video where she and another like normative trans woman were like, eww, this is like, this is bad for like all trans people. It's like, no! You know s- no!

Nichole [01:14:59] You little slut.

Everett [01:15:01] Yeah. No, no, no. I will not resort to name-calling here, even though I am very dislike Blaire White. Very much dislike Blaire White. Like, that justifies violence against trans people!

Nichole [01:15:19] Exactly.

Everett [01:15:19] You're trans!

Nichole [01:15:20] Yeah.

Everett [01:15:20] You know? Like that, yeah go ahead.

Nichole [01:15:20] And she is violent against trans people.

Everett [01:15:21] She is, yeah.

Nichole [01:15:21] She's violent against noncis people in general.

Everett [01:15:26] Yep.

Nichole [01:15:29] And yeah, and I think that's part of the conversation I always want to have. Because I know when I didn't realize that I was queer in all the ways, you know, when you're trying to be an ally and when you're trying to be someone who is informed, there's such Neoliberal conditioning around identity. I don't want to say identity politics because it's like a different thing, but this is what it's become. But this, I just want people to have the critical skills to see that just because someone is a thing, doesn't mean they're not doing harm. Right, like just because Blaire White is trans, doesn't mean she's actually, like you can't refer to her as a trans person as like a reference point or as an authority figure, right, because she's not actually performing transness. She's not performing it in a queer way. She's commodified it in order to weaponize it against her own community. She's commodified weaponizing her transness against her own community in order to gain social capital and like literal capital.

Everett [01:16:42] Yeah, and that's the thing too, is like at the end of the day, like I think Blaire is, she perceives it as, or maybe not. She's trying to defend herself in that, you know. But she's trying to uphold her gender in the eyes of cis people. She's classic cis bootlicking type of deal. For protection for her and not for other trans people.

Nichole [01:17:08] Yeah. She wants to say, look, I'm a good one. I did all the right things.

Everett [01:17:11] Exactly.

Nichole [01:17:12] And these people are making me look bad and I don't want to be connected to them. Yeah.

Everett [01:17:18] Exactly. Yeah, there's always, and here's the thing. There's always embarrassment going on for them. And you know what that is, girl? That's shame! That's shame, that's humiliation. That says - Blaire, I don't think she's listening. But Blaire, the fact that you think that non-binary people are embarrassing to trans people, that says more about fucking you than it does any trans person.

Nichole [01:17:44] Yes. And how deeply insecure you are with your own gender.

Everett [01:17:48] Exactly! Yes, like that's the thing is that, or even like Kalvin Garrah, you know, like the young trans guy who makes fun of like, ha-ha transgenders or whatever. Like a) he's young as hell. I don't know how old Blaire White is, but I'm sure she's also young. Like, or like she's probably not under 30.

Nichole [01:18:06] Yeah. I mean she's youngish. I mean, not a baby. But yeah, Kalvin's a baby.

Everett [01:18:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, he is, what he is trying to do is maintain boundaries around his particular experience of transness because there's so much trauma there. There is so much pain there. You know, like there's so many moments of him being like, oh, you're an AFAB person and you don't have dysphoria about your breasts? You're not trans. If you were trans, you'd want to get rid of them. He's trying to defend his own identity as a trans person. You know, like he's trying to build it up in an exclusionary way so that, like, he cannot be questioned. He's trying to present authority, like this is what trans looks like. This is what trans people do. And that is not trans. But since, but look at me, I'm acceptable. You know, I will kiss your boots, cis people. You know, like.

Nichole [01:19:02] I will lovingly lap your boots. Yeah, no and it's very clear that that is what they're doing, is they're creating this definition of what is OK with as much adherence to cissexism as possible, and then saying, I'm already on the other side of this line, right? So-

Everett [01:19:24] Yup, yup. I'm with you! I'm a good one, you know.

Nichole [01:19:25] Yeah, exactly like hey cis people. I know, I know. A lot of these people out here are just, you know, embarrassing and weird. And like, but there's ones like us that we're passable and we're OK and like we've done all the work and all the things. And we're going to do the job of policing our own community. So don't, you know, it's like so we're good. Like, we can be one of the ones that are accepted and safe and have money from this. And yeah, like you said, it just says more about them and where they are with themselves than anything else. And it's just sad that what they're doing is so actively harmful. Because I've heard from so many people that they have, like D'Angelo Wallace. I'm glad he, he's a YouTuber who just blew up and he has like over a million-

Everett [01:20:19] Mhmm, I love him.

Nichole [01:20:20] OK, good. Yeah, I love him too.

Everett [01:20:20] Yeah, yeah. He's a cutie, yeah.

Nichole [01:20:21] But for anyone who doesn't know, if you haven't watched his stuff, he's great. He just talks about like pop culture stuff. And he's one of the young people I follow to know what's going on in the world without having to actually be on social media.

Everett [01:20:36] Yeah.

Nichole [01:20:37] You know, he did a video about her... Well, it was about something, but she came up in it. And anyway, he just said, you know, I feel bad because I used to watch her and now I'm having to really analyze that, yeah, I think part of why she was palatable to me was because she made me comfortable in my own cis gender.

Everett [01:20:58] Exactly.

Nichole [01:20:59] Yeah.

Everett [01:21:00] Yeah. And also, again, this conversation, some of the points we made earlier could be very threatening to like a cis person's sense of self, you know. No, you haven't always been men in women. Sorry!

Nichole [01:21:13] Sorry!

Everett [01:21:13] You know, like that literally, like if we're talking about, like even just talking about within our culture, you know, within this bubble age, you go from a boy to a teenage boy to a man. You know, you've not always been a man. Like even within that context, but like the way that like we're talking about it now is like... Like that could be even more threatening because like instead of consistent essentialism or a consistent essential aspect of a person, that like, it throws it into whack. It throws everything into question, you know.

Everett [01:21:52] Like, and also that's the thing, too, is like we as queer people because of the culture we live in, we have to build up this language. We have to carve this out for ourselves. And like, whether cis people fuck with it or not, like that's not our problem, you know. I again, well like see, here's the thing. While I have great hopes for a queer utopia in the future, and like send all cishet people and babies, have a test. Send them, shoot them directly like underground to like a cis people colony, a cishet people colony or something like that. I don't know, I'm kidding.

Everett [01:22:36] Like I even, like even with this idea like, of course... Anyway, let me go back. The idea of a queer utopia sounds nice to me. At the end of the day, I don't care if cis people can come to terms with their gender in a way that I have, in a way that I can communicate about it. And if that helps them understand trans people better, great. I just want people to, like, stop fucking with us, you know. Like at its baseline, like I want people to stop fucking with us. But like again, is this palatable presentation of transness, is that stopping cis people from fucking with trans people? No, it's not. It's making it worse, you know.

Everett [01:23:24] Like you can even see, I don't remember the person's name right now or like where they are with their transness. They were like a young non-binary person who was like one of Kalvin Garrah's big videos where he made fun of trenders or whatever. They came forward and were like, I have been harassed like nonstop, told to kill myself, told, I, they're going to kill me. You know, like all of this shit. That makes... I don't understand how they don't see that that permits that same exact behavior against them. You know, like yeah.

Nichole [01:24:06] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it's extremely violent. All right, so after everything we've talked about, do we have an answer to this question? And I can go first and then I'll just give you space to respond in any closing thoughts you have. So I would say, you know, as a queer community and as a not cis community, if someone is asking us if they're still straight if they date us, I think a better response than, of course you are, is to say, I don't know. And I can't answer that question for you. And if we get involved, you may have experiences that question that. But what I can tell you is that, you know, I identify as a man, to me that is my gender. That is who I am. Or a woman, what have you. And I want to give you space to ask these questions and explore what you need to explore, whatever this relationship brings up for you.

Nichole [01:25:14] I think it can be fair to say, like, don't call yourself a lesbian. Right, like that is obviously very transphobic. And I think that's a lot of what the response to this question gets at as well, is that, you know, I assume by you not being straight, you're essentially categorizing me as a woman. And that is, right, transphobic. But say, you know, our relationship may feel different than other relationships you've had, and I like to practice really good consent. And if we're going to have sex, I may need to tell you things about how to engage with my body, and that may feel very different to you and that may open you up to, you know, a different sexual identity. Or you may just want to claim queerness for yourself, or you may have questions, or you may still end up being straight and just having these experiences and having be that part of what you call straightness. Although I have issues with queering straightness, but we've already been here long enough.

Nichole [01:26:15] So, you know, just something like that. Something that leaves it, that still can affirm your gender identity and communicate to them that that's important, that they do see you as a man and treat you, refer to you in that way, but that gives them some space for queerness. Because I can tell you, just the consent part alone, I mean, it's so funny to me because the same person who, actually I don't know if it was the same person. But you'll have a trans man who will say something like this, but then also make a Tik-Tok about how, you know, straight girls when they sleep with him the first time are just like, have seven or nine orgasms that first night and are just like, what the fuck is this? You know, and it's like, so yeah, this is a different experience. Like a lot of what's going to happen is going to be different.

Nichole [01:27:06] Now, like you, we've talked about not necessarily inherently, someone may be very good at heterosexualizing their relationships, and that may still happen. But odds are that, you know, there's going to be some element of that relationship that feels different. And in my opinion, why not invite queerness? Why not invite someone to expand their idea about themselves and about other people? And for me, one of the most important things is to give that space that if this person starts feeling that they're having a queer experience, maybe this opens them up to being bisexual or just being queer or whatever. If you create an environment where they feel they're not safe to talk to you about that, that is an inherently unhealthy dynamic. So just give them that, you know, have whatever script you want to follow, but just give them that space for that to be like, I don't know, like that's something you're going to have to decide yourself. But, you know, you may feel differently dating me. You may have a different experience and that's OK.

Everett [01:28:12] Yeah. I think I would, well, I would answer the question with more questions.

Nichole [01:28:19] And I love that as well.

Everett [01:28:22] You know, like I think, you know what it's like. It's one of those, there are times where there's something that's like so obviously right in front of your face but you don't register it. The sheer fact that this person had to ask that question says a lot. Says enough.

Nichole [01:28:40] I agree, yeah.

Everett [01:28:40] You know, like I think that, like, does it matter? You know. That's like, I think that's an appropriate response to that question. Or like, you know, like this girl is attracted to him. You know, like, should it matter if she's straight or not? You know, like does it matter. Like if you are interested in someone, go pursue them. You know, but like do it with like openness. You know, I think the only way that you could be straight going into that is like treating him like, just like any cis man or something like that. In the sense of like walking into the relationship-

Nichole [01:29:19] With very low expectations.

Everett [01:29:25] Expecting to have to clean up after him all the time.

Nichole [01:29:27] Exactly. Having a mother and... yeah.

Everett [01:29:29] Yeah. But like, you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, I was talking about like queer utopias, or like people not fucking with us. I think what I want is a point where this shit doesn't matter.

Nichole [01:29:43] Me too.

Everett [01:29:44] Like, you know.

Nichole [01:29:45] Yes.

Everett [01:29:46] Like, I want to get to a point where it's like, you know, obviously like, I'll probably always have to lead with my pronouns, you know, when I'm like introducing myself. But like, I want it to get to a point where people are just like, OK, you know, and then use my pronouns. You know, like or even if conversation comes up and they're curious and they want to know, talk to them but like not have pretense about it. You know, like that's what I want. Or not even have to think about worrying about trying to spoon feed it to them in a way that will then lead to them not fucking with me, you know. Or other people not fucking with me.

Everett [01:30:23] I think like, at the end of the day, like... or that's the thing is like, there was one, of the guys I've dated that said, you know, like my gender identity or like my pronouns weren't a big deal. You know, there was one, I mean, I have... it was a bad time in my life. I was 20 years old if that tells you anything. Twenty years old dating a twenty nine year old, so wasn't my best idea. But like I could tell that like, him being like, I don't care, was in like a I like you, you know, that's it. You know, like that's it.

Everett [01:31:01] And again, like why do we have to have yes or no answers? Why can't this be open ended, you know? Like there could even be like, say, if a relationship sparked between like that man and that woman, it's like, there could be parts of it that, again, from the outside look very straight. But like when it comes to the dynamic, it's not. So like fuck around and find out, you know. Like, I don't know, like am I straight? I don't know, are you straight? Why are you asking me? You know.

Nichole [01:31:36] Right. Yeah. And that's what I mean, is like that is the most important part to me is to put that authority and autonomy back on the person asking the question. Like I should not be the arbiter of your sexual identity.

Everett [01:31:49] Exactly. Exactly! Exactly.

Nichole [01:31:49] And I can understand it being like, please don't use my gender as a way... Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I can understand people not wanting their gender used in a certain way. But at the end of the day, too, like we do have to understand that we are queer and we are queering other people's lives and that that is actually a thing to be celebrated and not to be seen as anything necessarily offensive to us. Because this person could be asking in a very like, I'm concerned, I want to maintain my heterosexuality kind of way. But I have to think, you know, if someone's there on a date, then some part of them at least is asking, and I think a lot of people would be asking out of genuine curiosity, like, am I still straight? You know? And yeah, like-

Everett [01:32:39] Yeah, but they don't even know that it doesn't matter yet, you know.

Nichole [01:32:40] Exactly. And why not introduce that to them? Free the straights, right? That will help us a lot if you just free the straits. Like, tell them, who fucking cares? Like, you know, I'm here to talk about this with you and explore it with you, but like at the end of the day, it kind of doesn't matter. Like it just, that is a great answer, you know, it doesn't matter. It just matters if we like each other.

Everett [01:33:03] Yeah, and also that's the thing, too, is like, I was like, I mean, look behind the camera or the microphone or whatever. It's like I have like a notebook with me where I've been taking down notes where I, like before you even got to saying that, it's like, you know, why are we the arbiters? And I think it's, or people perceive us as such, is because we as trans people like have to develop this language for ourselves, you know. And like, well I mean, like I'll say like - and I think maybe at some point we'll have a deeper dive into - like what, like from my non-binary, ADD, neurodivergent brain, like having studied anthropology, like what the fuck is gender? You know, I think that's like a huge whole other discussion.

Everett [01:33:49] But like, trans people are so often considered like the arbiters or educators because we have to have this language with ourselves. We have to ask ourselves, like does this make me feel good? Is this euphoric or dysphoric? You know, and that's the thing is like, honestly for like cis people listening, if you're ever wondering, like, what's something you can do in your daily life to make life easier for trans people in one sense is like, develop that language with yourself. Ask yourself like, what are the actions and materials and contexts that constitute a comfortable sense of gendered being for them? When is it that you, and also, what are the moments where, that there's discomfort there?

Everett [01:34:43] You know, is it because of the assigned role or is it because like, or is it because of other actors in the situation that are shaking stuff up? You know, like I really think that, like, even just going out there and, like, talking to people about gender, about like what are the experiences and embarrassments, shames and traumas, I will say, especially for queer people and like AFAB people. I mean, not to say that, like AMAB, cis people can't experience shame or anything like that. But I think that shame and embarrassment, humiliation are like huge parts of like what define like non-cis or non-men experiences, you know what I mean? Exactly. Yes, exactly.

Everett [01:35:38] Like develop that language for yourself. And like, you know, Nic and I were talking about like, how do I, if I want, if I'm going to be approached in this, like, or by people, by the audience. Like if there are times where, like, you want to try to elaborate something, like do it in the Discord. You know, see what other people say. You would, like that's the thing about the trans groups that I'm in is like, I'm like in some trans groups for like trans masc people. And I'm like, people will say stuff about their experience or like their perceptions of themselves as like men, not men, non-binary, et cetera. Like I completely get that. You know, and I see comment after comment after comment being like, yes, you're entirely valid. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Everett [01:36:27] Develop those connections, you know. Like talk to other cis people about gender, like what are the things that bring you together as like cis people that are like a similarly defining experience. Because like I can even think of like... Again, answer to the question, not going anywhere near it. This is quick. Like I can think back to like, you know, like elementary school and middle school where like, there were moments, let's say there was a moment where I genuinely did not, I was put to key off the basketball or whatever. I had no idea how many times I was supposed to bounce it to the other person. So I actually gave the ball to the opposing team without realizing it.

Everett [01:37:17] But like, one of the kids, like, got was like, [annoyed sounds] you know. And, you know, like, did that drive me away from sports or masculine environments like that? Yes! Absolutely. Like, do I feel like comfortable in my body doing sports? Well, I mean, I love like badminton and volleyball and like dodgeball and stuff like that. But that I can jump into at any time. But like, think of like baseball, basketball, football, soccer, etc.. Like did that potentially drive me away from experiences that I might have enjoyed just because like of that moment of shame, and then I carried that embarrassment with me the rest of my life? That had an impact on my gender. That had an impact on how I walked around the world.

Nichole [01:38:05] One hundred percent.

Everett [01:38:05] So, exactly.

Nichole [01:38:05] I had like a different but I think very similar experience in, you know, my, I have huge tits and they came in very young. And I was in gym class, I was extremely athletic when I was little. And then I hit puberty and then I was in gym class and the boys would stop and watch me run, to like, watch my boobs bounce around. And then there were even comments like, we had to do push-ups, you know, one day and some kid just yelled, and like the teacher heard him, but he was like, she should have to do twice as many because, like, she doesn't have to go all the way down.

Everett [01:38:51] I mean, that's a painful experience for you, but in retrospect, talking about it, that's pretty funny.

Nichole [01:39:02] No, it's funny. But, you know, that, like I, after hitting puberty, left sports and never went back. And now, like, I still enjoy things, but they tend to be solo activities like running or, or things like yoga, where technically you're doing with other people but it's really, you're just in your own thing. And I think about that a lot. And I have a very athletic like mentality, like I'm very like team-oriented and I'm a pretty good leader. And I think, like, I really loved soccer when I was younger and I feel if I had - you know, there were also things with my parents that interfered. But yeah, I just feel like that cut out this whole part of my life that I could have had.

Nichole [01:39:46] And I suffered from eating disorders when I was younger. And they show that, like girls who are in sports have way lower rates of eating disorders because you build a different relationship with your body, right. It's more about what your body can do than what it looks like. And I think about stuff like that a lot, like the trajectory of my life. And, you know, I suffer from pretty massive chronic illness now and one of the main contributing factors was my long history of eating disorders.

Nichole [01:40:15] So it's like one of these small things that completely changed the trajectory of my life and definitely factored into how I felt about my gender. You know, this was one of those main conflicts where I was like, I don't know exactly what my gender identity is, but I do distinctly remember being so confused and upset about how the world was engaging with my body once it changed. You know, I felt that my autonomy of how I get to be treated and show up in the world drastically changed, almost like overnight, because of how my body changed, and then...

Nichole [01:40:58] So, to what you were saying before, which I wholeheartedly agree with, I actually ended up realizing I was queer because I started to question and challenge and do this work for myself as a cis person and then ended up realizing, oh I'm not cis. Look at that. And I think, like, a lot fewer people are actually straight and cis than we think. And there's some historical, you know, it's hard to find quote-unquote proof, but there's historical texts that point to that that is probably true. That these things that we take as the majority are actually not inherently naturally the majority.

Nichole [01:41:42] But regardless, anyway, I wanted to say that by the time this episode airs, it should be out already. But on my YouTube channel I had my friend Christian on, who's a cishet dude but who has always felt very uncomfortable around other men. Right, and has always very much, he has started in the last few years, and this is part of what we talked about, to do a lot of work around what does masculinity actually mean to me and how do I define it for myself? Because the way it's been defined for me is extremely uncomfortable.

Nichole [01:42:19] And, you know, part of that for him was just getting in touch with his feelings and being able to communicate how he feels, because that's seen as a very feminine thing to do, right. And so he had a lot, like almost his entire life, and now he can reflect back and see that it hurt some of his relationships, that, you know, it's caused damage, that he not only didn't express his feelings, but he literally didn't have any connection to them. And so for him, one of his ways of interrogating all this was to do the work and to say, let me go to therapy, let me journal, let me do these things have been coded female or feminine, because this bullshit is not working for me. I can see it's actively hurting my life, so let me reject it. Right, let me step away from it.

Nichole [01:43:06] And I think, yeah, anyone listening, however you identify, that is work we can all do. Right, that is, we can look around and see what's harming us and reject it to the best of our ability and step away from it. Especially the areas of privilege that we have, right? That's why I'm always hammering on about like dismantling whiteness too. It's like, it's not doing us any good, even white people. And it's something that we can all interrogate and say, how do I show up in a way that isn't white? How do I show up in a way that's making space for other people and directly confronting this power system?

Everett [01:43:50] Yeah, and also that's the thing, too, is like... Everyone can get in as close in touch with their gender as they want to, you know. And I would say like even like a good starting point is, I think, I like the word trajectory that you use because I often think of culture a bit as like, think of like a slanted slope or - a slanted slope. Think of like a downward slope. And, you know, like each little person is like their own little ball, like rolling down or whatever. Like there's already grooves and paths carved out into that hillside that people may travel down. But then, you know, like that moment of embarrassment or like that shame, and that shame around your body and how people were perceiving your body and interacting with it. Like that went, you know, plink, and, you know, like nudged that trajectory in a different way.

Everett [01:44:49] And like, I really think for a lot of people, you know, I think oftentimes it's easier for us to see, oh, that was a gender thing, you know, like quite literally. Like versus people listening, like think about moments like that of like discomfort and shame and embarrassment about your body or your presentation, but reframe it as gender. Say you stopped baking cookies because someone said, like, you look bad at the end of it, or something like that. You know, your hair is frazzled, you're covered in flour, why did you do that? You know, like don't even just think of that as like moving your trajectory away from baking. Think of it as like something that move your trajectory away from something that made you feel whole and satisfied as an individual, you know.

Everett [01:45:37] Like think about ways that other people have denied you the ability to forge for yourself what you want and what you want to see. For both physically and socially, but also your world around you, you know. Like I even have like a memory of a moment where I had a trans guy roommate who had tried on like a, not brownscara - is that what it's called? Brow gel or something like that. Like a tinted brow gel. And like I'm like, am I just awkward or am I on the spectrum? Sometimes I think I can be very, very, very blunt. Or not, and it also could be an ADD thing too, where it's like, the thought that like is in my mind sometimes just goes whoop, like right out.

Everett [01:46:30] You know, like, and I said to him, you did that wrong. But what I mean, what I ultimately, you know, conflict resolution, looking back I could have said, I think if you did it in this way, you know, like it would help the overall effect a bit more of thickening the brow. Because I remember he kind of just went straight across, but like he could have gone up or something like that. Doesn't matter. I never saw him do that again after that. And like that must have been painful. You know, like that was something that like, and maybe he's tried again, but like that was something that altered his trajectory. You know, he decided to try something and, you know, like me even just being like, oh, I don't think you did it right, like was something that disrupted that, you know?

Everett [01:47:14] So like, yeah. Again, not answering the question. Wrapping it back up. Like figure it out. Figure it out for your goddamned selves. I have enough gender over here that I'm dealing with.

Nichole [01:47:25] I mean, that is real.

Everett [01:47:28] Go do your own! Yeah.

Nichole [01:47:28] That's real, yes. So yeah, in conclusion, if you want to have a conversation about this, you can certainly leave a comment. But if you really want to have a deeper conversation, I would encourage you to join the Discord channel. As I mentioned, there's, actually I think this was off air. So, just so you know, listener, I have a channel in there for Pynk Spots. I have a category for Pynk Spots, and there's a particular channel that's dedicated to discussions about episodes that have come out. So you could have a discussion in there.

Nichole [01:48:06] And then there's also community channels, one specifically around trans identities. And yeah, it's just a really good, I would say it's a very queer space in that the purpose of the space is to be safe, but it is also to facilitate having difficult conversations with each other in a safe and constructive way, which I feel like the rest of the Internet, for the most part, does not do. Right, like safe space usually means no one's allowed to say anything controversial or not come into this space fully formed, as a fully formed SJW.

Nichole [01:48:43] So this space, my attempt to create a queer space is to create a space where we show up for each other in a way where we operate out of good faith and have these uncomfortable conversations to get better understanding and growth. And, you know, it's really incredible to watch it happen because it does occur that a lot of times someone asking the most ignorant questions - and again, we don't put up with hateful comments. That's very different. But, you know, someone can just be ignorant but very open to learn. And sometimes those are the people who end up being super queer and are like, oh shit, I didn't realize.

Nichole [01:49:20] And I was one of those people sometimes saying something ignorant or asking something ignorant and, but really it was coming out of a space of like, oh my god, I didn't know that these things were possible. Or I didn't know, you know, like I'm just pushing boundaries here and really questioning my own identity. So that's why I think it's so important to be able to talk to each other about this stuff, because you may interpret something as like hateful or ignorant, but it's actually a genuine question or genuine thought that's coming out.

Nichole [01:49:55] Like I know for me, realizing that I would absolutely date a trans person made me realize I was queer. And I think, at some point on an episode, I think I said that in a clumsy way. But for me, it was really like, oh, well if I don't care about genitals, then I'm fucking like queer as shit. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't really rooted in, like, the trans person and their body or identity. It was more that it just opened this door to like, well wait a minute, if I'm cool with that, then I'm cool, like I'm just cool.

Nichole [01:50:26] You know, and like all of these ideas I had about stuff were wrong and they were all like compulsive heterosexuality, like heterosexuality that had been imposed upon me. So, do you know what I mean, like I just, we need to make space for people to be a little clumsy and ask the questions, because I think for a lot of people, it is actually a journey towards their own liberation. And you don't know when you start out how to talk about stuff. You don't know how to word things properly or, I don't know, something can be offensive in one context, but not in another and you may not know how to give that context, you know.

Everett [01:51:04] Yeah. And also, I think too, you know, like just be patient with people in these types of conversations too. You know, like I think our online culture really facilitates a sense of like, if I say something wrong, my life is going to be over, you know. I've had, there's a group I'm in where I have had a question, a simple question, for the past two months. And I have written and deleted and rewritten and saved as a draft over and over and over and still haven't posted it.

Everett [01:51:39] Because like the culture of that group is like, if you don't come fully correct, then you're going to get like, I won't say shouted down because like, I don't want to frame, like, black folks educating white folks as being like, you know, [angry noises], you know, shaking their fists at them type of deal. You know, sometimes like stuff just comes out the way it comes out and there's no attachment to it type of deal, right. But like, but really yeah again, patience, patience, patience. And again, what's one of the most radical things that we can do on a daily basis is show people compassion and empathy and love.

Nichole [01:52:17] One hundred percent. One hundred percent. And, you know, I would just conclude too, by saying that if you are going on a date with a straight person, but then can't tolerate any of their questions, then like don't date straight people. You know what I mean?

Everett [01:52:36] Yeah.

Nichole [01:52:36] And, you know what I mean, like cishet, like very heteronormative straight people. And I'm not saying you ever owe anyone anything exactly, but it again goes back to that weird dynamic that you're then creating from the get-go where it's like I kind of have this disdain for you, but I'm also here on a date with you. You know, and we don't like that, right. Like that doesn't feel good for us. So I think we have to show some level of compassion. Like, it's fine if you're like this person is not for me, they're too ignorant. That's fine. But yeah, if someone's just asking a question and you're kind of putting up this, I don't know, you're just being very dismissive. It's like, then why are you there with them?

Nichole [01:53:21] I just have a big problem with dating in general where people are like, oh, I have disdain for these people, but I'm still dating them. It's like just don't. Like, to me that's also like a very, like, cishet kind of way of engaging with each other. And I am sensitive too to like that attitude being pushed towards women, you know. Like I think it's very easy to be misogynistic against, like an ignorant straight girl. And it's like, that's fine if she's annoying, like, but don't engage in this way where you're, like, engaging with her in a way that's going to make you, like, look down on her. Then just don't do it.

Everett [01:53:56] Yeah! Or like don't, like, if you're going to act against her in any way, don't make it about her gender as like a woman, you know what I mean. Like, like that's the thing is like what if we just take people as whole little, you know, babies or whatever. You know, like I can't think of a word. Like, you know, like and of course, you know, like there's a lot to be said about, like not having sympathy or empathy for our quote-unquote enemies or whatever. But like, I think, you know, like... Let me see if I can wrap it up like this. Have empathy for yourself. Be compassionate to yourself through this. And also, like be willing to face those like ugly, uncomfortable, like hurtful parts of yourself too.

Everett [01:54:48] Like, I think a world, gender or not, I think a world where we're all able to communicate what we want, how we want it, and not have, not make so much of a fuss about just having to ask in the first place, you know. Like I've been in, like, an abusive friendship where, like, I literally held on to things for weeks until they blew up and then made the situation worse. But of course, you know, she would not take any criticism of her behavior whatsoever type of deal. But like I would say, I mean, like you know, at a certain degree, protect yourself. Don't go into a group where you know you're going to get shouted down if you say something that isn't perfect.

Everett [01:55:29] But like in it, I'm saying, you know, like not like, you know, like Kumbaya my Lord, or whatever with our group, our space. But like, I would say if you want to explore these things, again, do it in Pynk Spots Discord. You know, like where you know you're going to get compassion from people and they're not going to immediately jump on you for using the wrong verbiage, you know.

Nichole [01:55:54] Right. Right. And yeah, I think you bring up a good point, because I think understanding the space that you're in is also very important. It's maybe not great to go into a trans support group in the sense that we're here to just be trans and like share in that, you know, revel in that shared experience. To then be like, hey, I have an ignorant cis question, and like, help me do emotional labor over this. But, you know, like our group is a mix of everyone and the space is actually built for and facilitated around yes, shared community, and that's what the community channels are for, but also open discussion. Like it's literally created to be - and there's other places on the Internet that are for that. How well they're run and how well they achieve that goal, that's questionable in a lot of cases.

Nichole [01:56:50] But, you know, yeah, I think context matters. And that's why, like for me, I can also understand if you're on a first date with someone, maybe you're like, look, I just wanted to have a drink with someone cute and I don't want to do this tonight. But just say that then. Just say like, hey, you know what? Before we even get into all that, why don't we just see if we like each other? And I think that's OK, too, you know. And say like, this is something we can explore if we end up being a couple or like end up hanging out a lot. But tonight, I just really want to have a drink with you and talk and just see if there's even anything here. And I think that that's totally fine too.

Nichole [01:57:26] Yeah, and you know, that is something for straight and cis people to consider, is if you're engaging in a situation that should be enjoyable and relaxed and comfortable and just casual, maybe not then. You know, maybe wait. Because that is something that we have to deal with a lot is just our identity gets engaged with before we as people get engaged with and that can be really exhausting.

Everett [01:57:51] Mm hmm. Yeah, and again, that's the thing is like, no one coming on the Internet is like, there's no end point for people. You know, like people are always growing and learning, you know. Like, there are times where I'll hear people be like, well, I don't want to - like if a conversation is going on - well, I don't want to talk about it because, like, I'm not as well versed as you are. And it's like, how do you think?! How do you think, how do you think I got to the point that, like, I am well versed in this? It's because I read and I talked and I listened, you know. Like, yeah so I think if we're going back to the question, is this girl straight? Who cares?

Nichole [01:58:33] Yeah.

Everett [01:58:33] Find out for yourself, you know.

Nichole [01:58:35] Who cares?

Everett [01:58:36] Literally, like just, yeah.

Nichole [01:58:39] TBD, right.

Everett [01:58:40] Yeah.

Nichole [01:58:41] And like, leave it at that. Yeah, I agree. Well friend, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for coming on.

Everett [01:58:50] Thank you for having me.

Nichole [01:58:51] So again, inviting constructive, collaborative community conversation in the Discord channel. I hope everyone enjoyed this. I'm not sure what the next question is going to be, what the next episode is going to be about, but we'll be back in two weeks with whatever the fuck that is at that time. All right everybody, thanks for tuning in.

Everett [01:59:09] Thank you!

Nichole [01:59:09] We'll see you next time, bye bye!

Everett [01:59:11] Bye!

Nichole [01:59:23] Hey, Pynko. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, consider supporting it by making a monthly contribution on Patreon, by going to Patreon.com/pynkspots. You can also make a one-time donation on Venmo to @pynkspots or on PayPal by using the link in the show notes below. Your donations help support a disabled neuroqueer anarchist live off her creative work, and that's pretty damn cool.