Community with Professor Flowers

I sit down with Claire (aka Professor Flowers, now goes by Lua) to talk about the need for community, the fallacy of the "lone wolf" mentality that we both have operated under for years, and her plan to run away in an RV.

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Nichole [00:00:11] Welcome to Pynk Spots, a queer anarchist space where we smash the patriarchy by celebrating what is strong about being soft. Here we'll explore what is vulnerable, raw, hurt, healed, sensual, queer and controversial. So join me and my friends from around the internet as we talk about deep shit and prove, as Janelle Monáe said, that pink is the truth you can't hide.

Nichole [00:00:46] Hey everyone. I forgot the overlay doesn't come off automatically. Welcome to Pynk Spots, your home for everything neuroqueer anarchism. As you can see today, I'm joined by Professor Flowers, a.k.a. Claire, and we're going to talk about the need for community, which I think is a wonderful topic in general. I think it's really great for the end of the year, especially the year that we've all had. And I think it's really nice, specifically for this space, because we're all about community here. So thank you for joining me, Claire.

Claire [00:01:22] Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I love this podcast and I love talking with you so I'm really happy to be here.

Nichole [00:01:30] I know, I'm so stoked to hang out and talk with you. So just before we get into it, so I don't forget because I will. Next live stream, I want to do a holiday celebration and I want you all to submit any questions or topics you might have that you'd like me to talk about that might be holiday related. So if you have any ideas, contact me on social media. And I wanted to do that upfront because Claire and I might venture into avenues of family, community, things like that. I know these things come up a lot this time of year. So if you have anything in your head that you'd like to be explored more next time, let me know.

Nichole [00:02:15] So today, again, we're going to talk about community. Claire, this was your idea, which I'm thrilled about. I like when my guest has a topic in mind, that makes me really excited. So if you don't mind, do you want to kick us off with some of your thoughts that you've had about the need for community in your life?

Claire [00:02:35] Yeah, I really want to talk about the need for community because, like me projecting maybe my personal life on this. Also, I feel like I should mention this, I have like this orthotics so I have like a little bit of a lisp right now. But if I sound a little bit different, that's why. But I think I spent a lot of my years feeling extremely alone and, like I had like a lot of community growing up. And I remember when I would like talk to people and say, yeah, I feel like really alone, people will be like, you just have to learn how to be alone. And I'd be like, hmm it's kind of weird because it's not quite the issue that I'm having, because I actually like being alone. Like reading or like working on videos. There was like lots of things I liked doing on my own. But I would still feel extremely lonely. And yeah, and I felt like very like just, I guess, just distraught really, at the state that I was in.

Claire [00:03:37] And then I had this, like, realization that I actually needed community. Like I actually went to this like extreme of like I'm going to like, live in this RV. And it was kind of crazy. Like I bought this RV. I was like, I'm going to, like, live off the grid and live away from people because I have to learn how to be by myself. And I like bought all this stuff for it. And then I started making friends where I was like jamming with people and I realized that I actually need some sense of human contact. I was just so desperate for any human contact. And then I realized that... Eventually I realized that those friends weren't maybe the best friends to hang out with and I started getting more plugged into leftist communities and like life has been so much better.

Claire [00:04:31] And I feel like I'll hear... The reason why I wanted to talk about it is because I feel like I hear this story of like a lot of people who are like leftist or queer or, you know, like somewhere like in this camp of like being like a minority of some kind, and people feel so alone. And I wish someone had just told me to just, like, find a community and that you'd be like, so much happier and life would be so much better. So I think that's why I want to talk about it, is because I've had this recent realization that community is extremely important and I want to, like, share that with everyone and be like, I've had this realization that community is extremely important and I want other people to like find their community and be safe and be happy.

Nichole [00:05:15] Yeah, I love that. I feel like I've been on a similar journey this year because everyone who's followed me or have been my friend for a long time knows that I'm really good alone. I do really well by myself. I don't really tend to get lonely, at least in the way that it seems that other people do. Where for a lot of other people, I feel like they just need to be around somebody. But for me, that's really draining. If I don't really enjoy that person, if that person isn't calming for me, then I find being around other people really tiring. But, you know, which is fine, but the problem with that is that I think given my upbringing, given that I'm so used to having to fend for myself, take care of myself, and feel so different from other people, I developed a similar coping mechanism where it's like I'm just going to isolate. I'm not going to depend on anyone. I'm just going to be off by myself. I had similar fantasies about being in a cabin in the woods alone and not needing anybody.

Nichole [00:06:27] And this year in particular, given that we're all isolated by force, at least to some extent, was really kind of strangely eye-opening. Because I found that because of the lockdown, I and other people were starting to make more of an effort to connect with each other and to stay in touch. And then, you know, going through what I've gone through in the last few months, like I really made an effort to reach out to the people in my life who I have a good relationship with and be like, hey, I want to strengthen that relationship with you and I want to be more vulnerable with you and I want to try to connect with you in a different way.

Nichole [00:07:11] And it's amazing like how wonderful that's been. And it sounds so simple or so obvious, but I think that under capitalism especially, a lot of us are conditioned to feel like we should be able to go it alone and that we should, you know... And that it's easier, I think, to be alone. That's how, I don't know if that's how you felt, but that's how I always felt. Like it's just easier to not have to deal with other people's stuff, to not have to try to explain myself or... You know, I always felt different and I always felt really exhausted by trying to explain myself to other people. And so it became easier to just be like, oh, never mind, you know. Like who cares about me? I'll just keep it to myself.

Nichole [00:08:02] But throughout the last few years, I've gotten connected into queer communities and neurodivergent communities and leftist communities. And then I realized, like, oh shit, there's people who will just understand me because I'm like them. And it was just so validating and made me feel so... It was like I didn't realize I was lonely until I found that connection. And then I was like, oh, I didn't realize this was missing from my life until now. And now it's amazing because I can talk to someone and they just get me and I don't have to feel exhausted by, like, trying to explain myself to them.

Claire [00:08:45] Yeah, I think that's so important. Yeah, I think just being around people. Like I am someone who really talks about my feelings a lot.

Nichole [00:08:59] Mhmm, me too.

Claire [00:08:59] Yeah, I like that. Like a lot of people are just like, woo, I'm here to have a good time, why are you talking about your feelings? I[crosstalk] have a good time, I want to be able to do that.

Nichole [00:09:11] Yeah. Exactly.

Claire [00:09:11] And I thought that there was something like super wrong with me for a bit because I couldn't, I like either was in places where like, I didn't really meet people where I could talk to about things. Like I would meet people who just wanted to hang out and like hanging out was like a distraction from whatever they were going through. Which I can understand. I can understand, like, I think friends can be a distraction. But for me, like I think, like, so the friends I'm thinking of, like we would jam a lot, and like we wouldn't really talk about our feelings, but we liked playing music and we might watch funny videos and laugh. And that was all right. But if you talked about how you felt, it was like so disgusting and looked down on and I was like, but I want to do both. I want to be able to like, jam and watch funny videos and talk about how I'm feeling.

Claire [00:10:01] And so, yeah, but I thought there was something really wrong with me because a lot of people don't necessarily want to go that deep with people. And it feels like awful, like I thought there was something really wrong with me. And then I kind of started living in this community house that's also like very queer and everyone here is leftist and like, I can just talk about how I'm feeling and people aren't like, hey, like you're bringing everyone down. Like, I can just be able to express myself and people understand. And it's like, it's such a relief and yeah, I think a lot of people are starved for that. And yeah, it's something that's like really good and healthy. And it's been like really incredible, like living with people and like trying to understand who they are as much as like they're trying to understand who I am and like, being faced with that, and struggling with that. It's like actually really beautiful, even though it can be really painful. And it's like, I'm glad to have that.

Nichole [00:11:11] Yeah, it is really beautiful and something I feel like I've kind of realized over, I think the last two years specifically, is that I think sometimes it can be hard to fully know who you are without having someone of that identity that you might be exploring there to kind of validate your experience. I have a few friends who are exploring their potential bisexuality, and it's been really interesting talking to them because so many things of what they're saying are things that I was saying a year or two ago, and now I'm in a position to be like, oh, that's normal. Like it's normal to question this because of that. It's normal to feel this way and, you know, here's my experience.

Nichole [00:12:07] And I just think, like if you were just surrounded by straight people and you're not a teenager, you're maybe a little bit later in life and you're like, I think I might be queer, those people around you are probably going to not get it, right? They're not going to understand the nuance. They're not going to understand CompHet and all these other things that can keep you from realizing this about yourself. And so for me, it's just been like, wow, damn like I always thought I was so introspective that I could just do the work by myself. I've realized that it's so important to have other people around you who have been there and are there to be like, no, that's normal, that's OK. And like, your questions are valid, your experiences are valid.

Nichole [00:12:55] I felt the same way about autism as well, because I'm, for many reasons, in a place where I basically will probably never be able to get a diagnosis. But it was actually another autistic person who suggested that I might be. And then we have a lot of neurodivergent listeners that were really, really validating. And it was like, I never if I was just around like neurotypicals, like I never would have understood this about myself, ever. Because it's not just the validation, which is really important, but it's the nuance of the experience and it's those stages of questioning and the things that can kind of go back and forth. And if you have someone not invested in you finding this out about yourself, I think it'd be really easy for them to dismiss those steps while they're really fragile. So yeah, I just, I found that, like, finding other people who can be there with you and really be like, oh yeah, I know what this is, I've been here before and this is, you know, this was my experience with it. Yeah, I don't know if I would know myself this well if I hadn't been exposed to other people who had been on that same journey.

Claire [00:14:13] Yeah, definitely. I think there is like the myth of "the lone wolf" that you mentioned earlier, where it's like you just got to figure everything out on your own. And it's like, that's a lie. That is a lie for so many things. And my girlfriend actually was talking about this and she was saying that, like, relational issues heal relationally. And I was like, what?! And it's like they, I mean, like so much trauma heals relationally and so much like, so much of finding yourself is found out through your relationships with people.

Nichole [00:14:55] Yeah!

Claire [00:14:55] And it's like I feel like this past year I've gotten over this, like I think for years I was like eating the whole like lone wolf lie. Where it's like, oh, like I just have to learn how to be alone and I need to, like, figure this out on my own. And I was like trying to make that work and it wasn't working because I think... I think that's, I don't want to say it's biological, but it's, it is something in our wiring as people. And obviously if people aren't like this, that's OK. But I do think, like there's actually like a lot of psychology to back this up about like relational things, like, healing relationally. Like if you look up like attachment styles, I don't know if you've ever, like, gone down that rabbit hole.

Nichole [00:15:37] Oh, yes. I love attachment styles.

Claire [00:15:39] But yeah. I know, I learned that, I was like, what?! I'm anxious attachment, obviously. Like it's so clear, like I was like reading the descriptions and I'm like anxious attachment style, that's me. But for those of you who don't know, there's like anxious attachment style. It's like, it's basically like how your parents kind of like raised you. Or like it doesn't have to be your parents, it could be like formative experiences that - and there's like secure attachment. So it's like if you're secure, that means your parents didn't fuck up. They were like, you know, gave you the tools to like deal with your emotions. And they were, you know, like very loving and like, so you're like a secure attachment. And there's dismissive, which is like, I don't want to deal with any emotions, I'm out of here. And there's anxious, which is like very attentive and like kind of focusing on the parent or caregiver, and is like kind of like anxiously watching to see what they're going to do.

Claire [00:16:33] And there's like mix and matches of these different styles. But when you're reading books about how to heal, like you generally want to be a secure attachment. And when you're reading books about how to heal, like dismissive or anxious attachment, the way that you heal them is you be in a secure relationship and through being in relationships with people who are secure, like you end up healing whatever attachment style you have, or you can end up healing. And it's like really crazy because you would think it's like, we're told the opposite. We're told that if you just like, go out and into the wilderness and isolate yourself, and just like journal and think really hard about things, that you're going to heal.

Claire [00:17:16] And not that that can't be healing. Like it's good to take time for yourself and like journal. But those things are going to help you learn how to be on your own and like that, is that like the life you want to live, where you're, like learning how to constantly be on your own or like do you want a life where you can, like, make relationships with people and be vulnerable with people and grow with people? It's like if you want that kind of life, then like you're going to have to have that with people and have relationships with people. And like, to me, that's so beautiful. That's like, that's like one of the reasons why I'm happy to be alive is to have those opportunities.

Claire [00:17:57] And I spent years trying to stuff that down, be like there's something wrong with me, I just never wanted to be alone. And I got slapped in the face because I bought an RV. I was like, wait, I don't want to live off the grid. And I already bought this RV, now I have to... I really messed up. I should make a video about that one day. I really messed up. I like jumped the gun. I was like, I'm going to be alone. I'm just going to like be out - there's this place called Slab City where it's like this like lawless land that like, people just like live in trailers. I was like, I'm going to live in Slab City. I'm just going to be myself. And like, I don't know what I was thinking. Like, there are definitely people who do that and that's great. Like I just had this realization that, like, I should put my time into like trying to make community.

Claire [00:18:38] And it's also really hard because, like, I lived in the suburbs because I was finishing up school. And I moved back in with my mom and now I live in the city and it's easier for, you know, like political and queer and like it's easier for me to, like, meet people who are in that same vein and make friends. But yeah, I don't know, I just realized it was important and I hope other people can find community too.

Nichole [00:19:09] Yeah. First of all, I would watch the hell out of that video, so I think you should make it. I really want to hear about this RV and what happened to it. But yeah, back to what you were saying about attachment styles, I went down a huge rabbit hole of attachment styles as well. There's a podcast, I don't really listen to the podcast, but they have a YouTube channel and I watch some of the YouTube videos. But it's called a Psychology in Seattle, and for their patrons, I signed up to be a patron just to like listen to this series. They had like a 15 hour deep dive on attachment styles. And I listened to the whole thing. I was like, so fascinated.

Nichole [00:19:58] But I think, yeah, what came through for me was that for so much of my - I have done a lot of work on myself and been successful with that, but for a long time I felt the same way. Like I had to just heal all my own stuff by myself and then become this fully complete, healthy person, and then I would have like healthy relationships, right? So I did all this work on myself, did all this work on myself for years and years and made a lot of progress. But throughout the years, I started to develop this kind of nagging feeling in the back of my head that I couldn't fully heal without other people. And that really conflicted with this narrative I had in my head, right? That like, you're supposed to, like, work on yourself and become this complete person and then you'll deserve love and then you'll deserve a healthy relationship, and then these things will come into your life.

Nichole [00:21:01] So I did this deep dive on attachment styles and it was really, really validating to me because he talked a lot, because he's a therapist he gives kind of general information, but he also largely talks to other therapists. So it's like you get kind of an inside view of what therapists do and how they treat certain conditions. And he was talking about attachment therapy and saying, like the therapist has to act as a surrogate to help you heal the attachment injury and start modeling a secure relationship for you. And then as you proceed in the therapy, you have to go do that with other people in your life. And I was like, and he's like, you can't, like you have to have that kind of interaction in order to heal. You can't just heal it on your own. Like you really do have to have someone in place performing that role for you.

Nichole [00:22:00] And I was just like, oh! And that was like this year? I think it was this year I listened to that podcast and it took this long in my life to finally accept that, yeah, I need other people to help me really, like, fully heal from this stuff that I experienced as a kid. And it was such a revelation and it was scary. It was really terrifying to me as someone who's kind of survived life by being like, well, I got my own back, that's all I need, you know, I don't need anyone else. But also, like you said, like beautiful and humbling to realize, like, I really do need other people to become whole. You know, I really do need other people to truly, deeply heal and be able to move past some of this stuff. What a trip.

Claire [00:23:00] Yeah. Yeah, I love it so much. It's like, I've had moments like that with people. Or like even like groups of people and it's really, really beautiful. And it's something that, like I think I value that, I really value that even when I didn't necessarily have it. And so, yeah, same here it was super validating, like reading about how that's actually something that... Like, it's like you need to actually heal like certain relational things with people, and that's not because you lack something, it's not because, like you're not trying hard enough. That's actually like just like how you heal, like, relational issues. And it's also like, like an honor and a joy and beautiful to do that with people. It's like, I just felt so validated, like when I learned that, I was like, yeah, like I'm going to go out and like, figure this shit out and like, stop, try to like, not live so, like so much in fear. Like I think we talked about this last time, but like René Brown, when she talks about vulnerability? Did we talk about that at all? Brené... Brené Brown.

Nichole [00:24:16] I think it came up.

Claire [00:24:21] But yeah, when she talks about vulnerability and like having deeper relationships with people, like requires vulnerability, and I think that ties in a lot with like having to heal things relationally also requires a level of vulnerability with people. It's like to me a lot of this comes down to like being able to be vulnerable to people and how like that's so important to our well-being and our mental health and like being happy. And I just love that like psychology confirmed that because I was like, yeah, that's what I want to do but maybe there's something wrong with me so I'll just give up on it.

Nichole [00:25:07] I know, I know. I was actually talking to a friend who's really into what would be categorized as woo kind of stuff. And it's funny because she and I are so different in a lot of ways. But we worked together a long time ago and we've stayed friends throughout the years. And it's one of those beautiful relationships where, like, if we had met at a party or something, we probably wouldn't be friends. But because we were working together in the same sort of position for a while, we have this friendship and it's just become this wonderful thing in my life. So she was talking about doing shadow work and I was like, oh, like so much of what she was saying, I'm like, that's what I've been doing also but from kind of more of a psychological, like coming from like a psychology sort of perspective but a lot of the work is so similar.

Nichole [00:25:57] And it was this wonderful kind of bonding moment to just see that, like you said, like psychology is validating so much of, I think what a lot of people have found a lot of healing in, but has been dismissed by the greater public as like woo or, yeah, like being needy or being weak. Or all these things that we apply to people who seek out relationships and are able to say, I need to have people in my life. And I just found that to be, we just had like the best, most beautiful conversation. And it was so nice to be able to kind of like meet her in that space of like this isn't something that I really do but like, I also totally get where you're coming from. And like I've had all these experiences I'm excited to share with you. It was it was a very beautiful moment.

Nichole [00:26:55] I was wondering if you have any thoughts about finding community and having it... I'm not even exactly sure how to word it, but having it validate your oppression, if that makes sense and having it kind of give you... Give you permission, I guess, to start like advocating for yourself in a different way? Because I feel like that happened a lot for me, especially around disability, chronic illness, autism, things like that, where I was like, oh, like this shit that has bothered me and been so difficult but everyone was telling me I was being too sensitive or I needed to just like, you know, exercise more. You know, whatever people tell you to do when you're disabled. You know, finding a community that really validated like, no, you have special needs. You have different things in this, you know, that, this is really valid. And then I found that I was able to just start, like, really advocating for myself in a different way.

Claire [00:28:09] Yeah. That actually did make me think of something. So I, so the place that I live, because like for me, where like the most validation I got was actually like around race. And the place that I live is actually very white and I have, most of my friends are white, mostly because of the area that I live in. And they're still left leaning so it's like, you know, they're anti-racist but there's like a lot that about race that they just don't understand because they also grew up in white areas or like they're white themselves. But I took this class, actually, called Problematizing Whiteness. And I had to take it, I had to take some sort of like requirement to graduate for like, I forgot like the category but like I was taking it, I was like, oh, it's about race, but I was taking it so I could graduate essentially and get my degree.

Claire [00:29:07] But I was like, I was expecting most of the class to be white and kind of how like a race class on, you know, where like most of the college students are white and it's like a teacher, kind of like, explaining like a lot like the basics and things, and like there's always like that one student who's like, but can't there be reverse racism? And like every person is like, just sit down, like why do I have to be here? So I thought it was going to be something like that and like I walk in the classroom and there's like two white people and almost everyone was like a person of color or black. And the teacher, she was actually Filipina, or a Filipino.

Claire [00:29:48] And like not that it'd be, like, wrong to have like white students in there, but it was just like this thing where like, when we had that class, we were like, it was so like candid. And we were just like able to talk about our experiences of racism, like so, just like, frankly. We didn't have to, like, hold anything back to, like try to make white people feel comfortable because the white people that were in that class were like, yeah, I'm very anti-racist. And so, like, if you complained about, like, racism happening, there wasn't that one person who is like just so like resistant to it so you had to like, really like... You know, like so I'm glad that people are taking those classes and you can, like, slow it down. But throughout that class, I really started to feel like this sense of like community that I hadn't felt before because I had grown up in such a white area.

Claire [00:30:42] And to this day, like, I would love, like I'm like talking to my girlfriend and saying, like, next time we move, like, we need to move to a city that's like really diverse and so I can find like community there. But for me, like taking that class, because in that class we talked about like specifically the issue with race is like the idea of whiteness. Like the issue with racism is with the idea of whiteness and what that means. Like what it means to be white and how that categorizes everyone else and that's the issue. That's like the issue. The issue of racism comes down to that, like it's nuts. And all of us were like, yeah! Like it was so empowering because like we had, like, never been able to put our finger on it. And it's like that's what we're trying to say.

Claire [00:31:31] And like it was like all of us. It was like literally like the Black students and the Latino students and the Asian students were like, yes! This is it! And it was so like bonding and it was so beautiful. And also like the white students who were there too. Like, we were just like all like, fuck this, we need to fix this issue. And it was yeah, it was so empowering. And I felt like after that class, I felt so less afraid to... Like there was a part of me where I was like, if people don't understand this, then like I used to feel like so much anxiety about it and like, oh I need to like, explain things and like, or I need to like, water down what I'm saying, like say things in a way that... And like after that class, I was like, I just need to like, say what's going on and if people don't understand that then I can't slow down for them. Like someone else can, but like I, it's OK for me to be like this is what's going on. And I felt so empowered to do that.

Claire [00:32:30] And yeah, and like, I hope I can find a community like that in the future. But that was kind of like my community that empowered me to be able to talk about race in a way that was like, this is what's happening. And it's not in a way that's going to make a lot of white people feel comfortable. It's like if you want to really talk about what's going on, it's going to be pretty uncomfortable. And I could just say it instead of just like being fearful.

Nichole [00:32:56] Yeah. Experiences like that are incredibly powerful because, and I think the education component is so important. And I like how you put it, it's really important to be in a space where you can learn and think and talk without having to slow down for the fragile majority, right? Like, you don't need to stop your progress of learning to accommodate someone else's feelings. Yeah, I've been talking to some, we've been talking, some friends and I have been talking about sex and just sex culture and stuff. And we were just talking about that this morning of how it's so difficult to try to have some of these conversations with like, cishet men because they're so just invested in not feeling that they're contributing, that they just can't hear it. Like they can't just stop and hear it. So it's just so beautiful.

Nichole [00:34:00] We were all three of us were saying how excited we were to have this space together to talk about these things because we didn't have to slow down for someone, we didn't have to try to explain it in a way that they can understand. Mexie, I was going to call you out. But we didn't have to like, we were able to just say how we feel and not self-edit. And I think that that is so undervalued just in larger discourse. And I think that's for a reason right, because it's incredibly powerful to be in a space where you don't have to edit yourself and you can be like, this is the fucking deal. This is my life experience. This is what's happening. And yeah, like the powers that be don't want us being able to do that with each other because it is incredibly powerful finding like...

Nichole [00:34:56] I remember even in middle school and high school, I used to go in to school and the lights would, I would just like walk around and I would barely be able to open my eyes and my eyes would be like watering all day. And I didn't know what my problem was. And I always felt, like it was just so weird. Like I never said anything to anyone but I was in pain every day. And then finding out that, like I have, I'm extremely sensitive to sensory input and that that's a valid thing that... I think for me, a big, like, empowering moment was, I don't know if you've heard of the social model of disability versus the medical model?

Claire [00:35:41] I haven't, no.

Nichole [00:35:43] Well, and I should just explain it for everyone anyway. So the medical model of disability is like, like with autism. Autism is diagnosed based on what deficits you have, what deficiencies you have. Things that they consider to be substandard, and then that's how they go about it. Like you're kind of defined by these things that are less than the normal or different from the normal. A social model is more saying that you're not disabled, you just need to be accommodated in certain ways. Right, so like for someone like me, it's not that I'm different and so I have these problems. It's the social model says, no, you have these problems because you're living in a society where everyone has fluorescent lights, there's perfumes and chemicals and smells everywhere, everything's loud. And there's a means of communication and working that are based on a different type of person. So it's not that I'm deficient, it's that I'm in an environment that just doesn't accommodate me.

Nichole [00:36:55] And to me, that was incredibly empowering to me because I would do the same thing. I would kind of skulk around and be like, well, I can't be a burden to anyone. And I can't, I have to just deal with it. And I have to present myself as if I'm a normal person, right, like a healthy person, because otherwise my career's going to be impacted and my relationships will be impacted. And so it was always like, there's something wrong with me and I need to hide it. And then after really understanding this like, social model, that if we just accommodated, if we just made sure that everything was accommodating to everybody, we would be fine and we wouldn't really need to label people as disabled. It would just be that everyone has things that they need.

Nichole [00:37:48] I mean, if you think about it like even a really tall person has certain needs, right? Like on an airplane, if you're super tall or you have really long legs, you're probably miserable and you really do need certain accommodations. Like maybe you book that first seat that doesn't have any seats in front of it. So it's like, yeah, and instead of seeing people as like what they lack, it would just be that, oh OK, we need to make sure there's ramps everywhere so if someone happens to be in a wheelchair, they can get inside. That was really empowering for me and I started, the last year that I was at my job, I started to really push. I started using the word disabled, I started using the words chronically ill, and I started to really push for them to make certain accommodations for me. And, you know, it probably did hurt my job prospects, but I was really empowered to be like, this isn't me, like I'm not doing something wrong. I'm not less than anyone else. I just need you to do a few things to accommodate me.

Nichole [00:38:52] And yeah, being around other disabled people, other chronically ill people, other neurodivergent people, it just, I wouldn't have felt that way if I hadn't been exposed to that kind of community who was like, no, we're great. You know, we're fine. It's just that the world is literally set up to not accommodate us, and that's by design. And so it's good for us to push and make people a little uncomfortable and put it in their face that like, this is who I am and this is what I need and that's OK, that's not a deficit on my part.

Claire [00:39:31] Yeah, totally. I think society is just, it's so not accommodating. Like the way that we even have school, for example, is like not necessarily going to, like, prepare... It's weird, it's like the way that we have school won't necessarily prepare us for the workforce. And it doesn't necessarily make us happy either. It's like there are so many, like there are just so many things that I look at where I'm like, yeah, this is not accommodating anyone, but like just trying to, like, pop out workers and in order to like make more money.

Claire [00:40:11] It's really, really weird, like when you look at how people have lived for like the most majority of humanity, like the modern human I think is like... I could be wrong on this number exactly but I think the modern human is like a hundred thousand years old or so and there's like... I have to look that up because I feel like it changes like where they cut that off all the time so I'm sure that's not quite accurate. But like a very, like more than modern history, where we have written history and it's like the way that humans have been living within these like smaller communities and like the way they've been like practicing spirituality or religion. It's like, yeah, if you have someone who, like, needs some sort of accommodations, like, that's fine. And so many like different groups of people, it's like not something that they're like shamed for. It's like something that the community is like, oh, this person needs this? Then let's do that. You know?

Claire [00:41:09] Also like that same as like being queer. Like there's like so many different groups of people where it's like, oh like, you know, like the way that we categorize men and women. And like this person doesn't seem to be either or, that's fine. Or like there's like so many different genders and other different groups of people where it's just fine. And the way that we have society now is like so... It's like so extraordinarily oppressive when you, like look, just like read into like how other pretty modern societies have existed and even like still like indigenous groups of people either do exist or are trying to exist as, it's like so crazy because you're like, they just seem so happy and like so accommodating to people. And that kind of seems to be how humans should live. And then, like the society that we have now is just so extraordinarily oppressive in comparison. It's like, yeah, this isn't working because this is not how humans have evolved to be. And yeah, it's something that like drives me crazy, just like looking around every day. I'm like, why are we doing, like we all, like we all opted into this so I'm like can we just like not?

Nichole [00:42:18] Yeah, can we just opt out?

Claire [00:42:18] Can we all just like get together and be like this is not working for the vast majority of us and be like let's do something else? But like we can't.

Nichole [00:42:25] Please?

Claire [00:42:26] Like we're stuck in this bureaucratic hellhole. I don't know.

Nichole [00:42:29] I know. No, it's so true. And I think like it's... Yes, because I think that's why, it's why it's so important to find other people to talk to and especially people who have become educated in some way about, even from an anthropology perspective or an anarchist perspective or a queer perspective. Whatever it is like, it's so important to have those other views of things because everyone will really walk around and tell you that like nothing else is possible. That like what we have today is just the only thing that makes sense and that's what we're stuck with. And it's like but even in the history that we have, like, we know that things have been different before, so why do we think that this is how it has to be now?

Nichole [00:43:20] And it's just... I think, too, like part of my queerness is the disruptive part of it, right? It's the part, like that's one of the biggest pieces of it for me. It's not even my gender or sexual identity. It's the being a person who's like, I'm going to be over here, like in every sense of my being showing you that this isn't right and it's not working and there are other options for us. But it's really hard to do if you're by yourself, because the entire structure of our society is to gaslight you about that and make you question it constantly and make you feel like you're wrong and make you feel really isolated, to go back to what you were saying before. I know for me that was a big feeling of isolation because before the show really took off and we had like a better social circle of people who are leftist. You know, I would, like even my friends that I have who are definitely leftist, but not nearly as radical left as I am. Even with them, like, I would just feel like, am I making this up? Am I like, am I just being ridiculous, you know?

Nichole [00:44:46] I think we were talking before we started - wait was that before? My memory. Anyway, how leftism - yes, it was before we started streaming. How when you're leftist, there's this inherent idea that you're more immature. Like leftist ideals are like a younger, more immature position to have. And that really started to impact me, especially once I was pretty deep into my thirties, and talking about this stuff but not feeling like the people around me were with me on it. And I would just be like, oh, am I just some overgrown teenager running around just being ridiculous, thinking that things could change? You know, should I grow up and should I get more realistic about stuff? And then I found pockets of people who are like, fuck no, we're fighting our asses off and we don't know if we're going to see change in our lives, but we're going to push for it. And I was like, oh, thank god. And then you realize that like, it's the staying in place that's really immature. But there's just so much conditioning around it that it makes you feel like you're crazy or like you're immature or that you're just so fundamentally alone.

Claire [00:46:06] Yeah. Yeah, I feel that so much. Yeah, and I totally agree, that's why community is so important. It's like weird, I feel like every... I don't know, it makes me so angry. Like I feel like I'm like, this is why, like I don't know if you like pay attention to, like, my Twitter. Like my videos are getting like, like each video I get it's like snarkier and snarkier.

Nichole [00:46:31] Yes, I love it.

Claire [00:46:34] I started off like so sweet.

Nichole [00:46:36] You were very sweet in the beginning.

Claire [00:46:42] It's so true, like I love the progression.

Nichole [00:46:42] I was like, oh the internet got to her.

Claire [00:46:42] Yep. Yeah, yeah but-

Nichole [00:46:46] Me too, I've gotten bitchier over the years. I'm just like, listen, Mama's tired. She's going to tell you how it is.

Claire [00:46:57] Yup, yup. But yeah, I get so snarky because I'm just like, I get like so crazy because I'm like, is it really that insane that like we just want, like literally like we're like in modern society. Like we have all the benefits of modern society, like scarcity is literally artificially created. Is it really that crazy to create a society where we provide for people's basic needs and make it more inclusive? Like I feel like that's literally like the baseline of like what leftists are asking. Is to provide people with the basic resources they need to have the freedom to have pursuit of happiness and to be more inclusive of like different, all the different kinds of minorities of like minorities, like racial minorities and gender minorities and people with disabilities. And like we just want, we literally can just do that. We can decide that we can do it, like there's nothing stopping us. And that's what like, that's why I feel like I'm so snarky, because I'm like, is it that crazy?

Claire [00:47:58] And at the same time there is like, you know, like you get on to Twitter and like you see people like... You know, like you see like Trump supporters calling people on the left like babies or children. Or like even in my own family, just like, you know, like just, I feel like infantilized or, and patronized. It's like I just want a better society that totally seems doable. The only thing stopping us is us. Like, it's not that we don't have enough food. It's not that we don't have enough housing. It's not that like, you know, like we just need to, like, do it and we can and we just need to like, you know, have more representation of queer people in media. And like, if we just did all these things, like society would drastically improve for everybody. And that's why I get super snarky because I'm like, yeah, I'm so sick of... I just get so sick of, like, feeling like a child for I think asking very reasonable things.

Nichole [00:48:53] Yeah, that's a really good way to put it, because that is what it feels like. Like you're, yeah, like you're acting like a spoiled brat, but you're like but I'm just asking for people to have food. That's all I'm asking for. I'm not throwing a fit over something ridiculous. I'm just saying I don't think people should die of exposure when we have empty houses all over the place and empty rental units all over the place. Ugh, yeah it's so-

Claire [00:49:20] And as a side note, like it costs more money to do homeless sweeps than it costs to just give people homes. Like it literally costs... anyways. That's all.

Nichole [00:49:31] I know, that's a whole... different topic for a different day I guess. But yeah, and I think that is part of too, I just see that I think neoliberalism, probably neoconservatism too, but I think they kind of take a different path. But I just see neoliberalism makes people so fractured and so apart from each other, I should say, and also themselves. I think there's a lot of the conditioning there that creates a lot of superficiality between how people interact, right, and a lot of this like rugged individualism that we get. And it's just so clear to me that community and connection really are - and this is also coming from, like everything I've been learning about anarchism and how much it resonates for me, because that's all about community care and connection. And it's so true that that really is so powerful to overcoming these capitalist ideals that we have. And it's showing people that things are more manageable than we think.

Nichole [00:50:48] Like you said, I mean, it's almost as simple as we could push a button and people could have food. Like the food's there, the people are there, we just need to get the food to the people. We just have to decide that that's what we want to do. And I do think connecting is really important because you may find a community that's exactly like you, but the odds are you're going to have different pockets of community that are all like you in some ways and maybe not like you in other ways. And I think the ways that you're not alike, because you have this connection, you get to connect and educate and kind of expose each other to things.

Nichole [00:51:28] And then that creates this sense that, like, I think what kills me is that it's so clear that everyone just thinks for alone. Like people don't want to give people food because they think, then there won't be enough food. There's just this idea that there won't be enough for me and then I'll be all alone. Right, and then what's going to happen? So I think just this year, if anything good has come out of it, which is questionable, I think at least we saw, I know even in my area, we saw a huge uptick of mutual aid and community support and people just coming forward to be like, like I'm your neighbor. So you're going to be OK. I'm going to help you out. But we're so trained to think that no one's going to have our back, no one's going to be there and so we have to hoard and keep it all to ourselves. And it's just amazing that, like, when you can connect, even if you don't agree on everything, even if you don't have all the same identities, I just think it starts to really erode that sense of, like, no one's going to be here for me.

Nichole [00:52:39] I even had that experience cause you know, I needed some help this year and I got it. And I was like, whoa. You know, like no one ever helps me. But it's because I was always around people where a lot of our connection was superficial because they were like coworkers, or they were people that I was connected to socially but we didn't have these deep bonds over a shared identity. And then now that I do have a network of people like that, they were, I didn't ask for help, I just was like, oh, I'm going through a thing, and people stepped up and helped. And I was like, holy shit, you know, like is this what it's like to have a community? This is amazing!

Nichole [00:53:21] So, yeah, I just think it's such an important piece of the larger project of dismantling, like whiteness and capitalism and colonialism, is to have community. And I think it's really important for us to see all the ways that, the way the system is set up, it does try to keep us from each other and it tries to keep us from the validity of our needs and experiences.

Claire [00:53:48] Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That's like so well put. Like it tries to keep us from the validity of our needs and experiences. Yeah, yeah.

Nichole [00:53:58] So yeah, it's powerful to have someone next to you who looks like you being like no, that's actually really valid and I can help you out with that, you know?

Claire [00:54:07] Yeah, totally.

Nichole [00:54:10] Yeah. So we're at about an hour. How are you feeling?

Claire [00:54:16] I'm feeling good.

Nichole [00:54:18] Do you have more things to say?

Claire [00:54:21] I don't think so. I kind of just like, was like, oh I'm just really passionate about community right now, so I just kind of generally, you know, wanted to just get stuff out.

Nichole [00:54:31] Yeah. Yeah, go find your people.

Claire [00:54:32] Yeah, but I think I've said-

Nichole [00:54:34] Do you. Sorry, I keep interrupting you.

Claire [00:54:37] No, you're good.

Nichole [00:54:39] That's a typical move is I ask a question then I interrupt with more questions. I was going to say, do you have, before we sign off, do you have any tips for people of how to find community? Do you have anything that's worked for you? It sounds like one might be taking a class about an identity that you're exploring. I know there's a lot of gender studies classes. There's a lot of race theory, queer theory out there, so that might be one tip. Do you have any other things that have worked for you?

Claire [00:55:10] Yeah, I think moving, like I love the outdoors, but I think moving to the city was a game changer for me. Like there's just so many people. Yeah, there's just so many people who I can connect with. And it's, like before where I used to live, I used to live in the suburbs because I was finishing up school, and that's like not a great place to be. So I guess like, try to put yourself where there's going to be lots of people where you can, like, have similar ideologies to like, connect with. Yeah, because like the city, my city is not that diverse, but if it was more diverse it would be perfect. And like just meeting leftist people. I think also organizing, like having, like one of my housemates would have Bernie phone banks when Bernie was running and that kind of like brought a lot of people over. And like, yeah, I didn't like getting out and being social, like I always took that for granted. Like, obviously we can't now because it's the pandemic.

Nichole [00:56:21] Right.

Claire [00:56:21] But like I kind of was like, oh, like I kind of will get drained sometimes going out. But like, there's a way that you can, like, go out and socialize in certain places and then just like meet people. And that I wish I had actually done more because I was like, oh, like I'm just going to be drained. But like, I kind of would like make friends like going to music shows. So like if you're like into playing music or something or into listening to music, like you can make friends at shows. But like really putting yourself out there and like trying to meet people, putting yourself in places where you will for sure meet people on a regular basis. But you can't do it now because of the pandemic.

Nichole [00:56:57] Yeah, I struggled with that, too. I know.

Claire [00:57:01] So don't do that now!

Nichole [00:57:01] I know, it's so, everything's so hard right now because it's like you're just stuck inside kids, sorry. But yeah.

Claire [00:57:09] Oh! Also community housing. If you can live in a community space. Or even if it's not a community house, like having roommates that, like you can be friends with is really, like has been good for like my mental health. Yeah.

Nichole [00:57:23] Yeah, I have a lot of friends who, when they were getting roommates, would like specifically put in the ad that they were vegan or they were anarchists or whatever. And I think people are afraid to do that but it's like what I tell people with dating apps as well. It's like, you know what, just put it out there and then you're going to attract someone who's into that. And it'll be a much better fit than trying to appeal to someone who just thinks that that's all ridiculous.

Claire [00:57:55] Yeah.

Nichole [00:57:56] And I struggle with that too, because I'm introverted and I'm autistic. So it's like going out can be really difficult, especially if I don't know anyone. I'm kind of awkward in like a new space. But I agree with you, I think there's ways, there can be ways to do it where it's not so draining and maybe not so difficult. And I wish that I had in the past maybe taken advantage of that a bit more. Definitely second the organizing. Most of the people here know, but I used to run a local like vegan cooking club and it was really fun and very successful and I met a lot of people that way. And then within that, I had a book club and that was actually even the better thing for me to do.

Nichole [00:58:46] And it can be really surprising that when you're like shy or introverted - those aren't the same thing. But when you're shy or introverted, leading something sounds overwhelming but sometimes it can be easier in a way because like you're the center person and people will come up and talk to you. And most of the interactions can be short because you might be dealing with stuff that's coming up and usually there's a focus to what you're doing. So I think those are all amazing tips. Very good. And then, you know, of course the internet's the internet. So if you can get into a group, a Discord server, whatever you can find, that is of those same people, that can be great.

Nichole [00:59:32] Just don't be afraid if it's not a good fit to just be like this isn't a good fit. I've found, like some disability groups just haven't been a good fit. And I'm like, that's OK. So I think looking around too and trying stuff multiple times is really important. Because I think people go to especially live events and get really disheartened, you know, if it doesn't go great the first time. But I think it's OK to give it a couple tries because sometimes you're just having an off night or other people are. Well, Professor Flowers. I always say Professor Flowers aka Claire, but it really should be the other way around. Like Professor Flowers is your birth name. Where can people find you?

Claire [01:00:18] You can find me on my YouTube channel, just Professor Flowers. You can also find me on Twitter, which I think is @BorealisClaire, but maybe you can just type in Professor Flowers and it might come up. But you can follow me on Twitter too.

Nichole [01:00:33] Yeah, I think you can find you both ways. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming today. I'm going to hang out for the after party. Would you like to join or do you want to bounce?

Claire [01:00:45] Yeah, definitely.

Nichole [01:00:47] OK. So to everyone listening at home, thank you for joining. We'll talk to you next week. As a reminder, if you have any ideas for the holiday celebration episode, please let me know. I would love to hear them. For everyone here on the live stream, I'm going to play the after party videos so Claire, you'll have a three minute break if you need to do anything and then we'll come back and hang out for a little bit.

Claire [01:01:12] All right, sounds good.

Nichole [01:01:12] All right everyone, bye!

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Community with Professor Flowers

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