Canceled & Petty with Christopher Sebastian

An episode five years in the making, today I'm joined by THE Christopher Sebastian McJetters to talk about being squishy humans in activist spaces that can often feel unsafe and aggressive. We get petty about being "canceled" and try to work our way through how we can talk about the issues without thwarting the efforts of the people who created tools like canceling to fight back against oppressive forces.

Follow Christopher Sebastian:
Patreon
Facebook
Twitter
Website

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Love the show!? Click the links below to support me, follow me, or join the community:

Pay me, Daddy!
Patreon | Venmo | PayPal
Join the community!
Discord
Follow me and give me validation!
Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Website

Nichole [00:00:11] Welcome to Pynk Spots, a queer anarchist space where we smash the patriarchy by celebrating what is strong about being soft. Here we'll explore what is vulnerable, raw, hurt, healed, sensual, queer, and controversial. So join me and my friends from around the Internet as we talk about deep shit and prove, as Janelle Monáe said, that pink is the truth you can't hide.

Nichole [00:00:45] Hey everyone, I wanted to pop in here real quick before we get the show started with this awesome collab with Christopher Sebastian. We had a really great little episode here. I was trying to be cognizant of his time and also of my data limit on my new podcasting plan, so this episode is an hour. He did end up hanging out for the after party, which was really cool. And we did almost basically a second episode there. That can be found on my YouTube channel, so if you're interested in more content and want to hear more about his thoughts on things like privilege, and also we dished a little bit about Unnatural vegan, you can go to YouTube. The link will be in the show notes. You can also just search for Pynk Spots, remembering that pink is with a Y, and you'll be able to find it. And you can just jump forward, I play a little three minute video, kind of some outro music in between the main episode and the after party. So it's pretty easy to find, it should be right about halfway through where the after party starts.

Nichole [00:01:57] So just wanted to encourage everyone. I don't want to push YouTube on y'all too much if you're really not into it. But these after parties with guests do turn into essentially more content that oftentimes is as good, sometimes even better, than the main episode. So I just wanted to give you all an opportunity to check that out. Also, at the end, I do announce that I will be doing advice column episodes starting next week, which is starting on February 3rd. I'm going to do one a month and then eventually aim to switch over to that being more of the main format of the show with collaboration's being more special live stream events that happen less frequently.

Nichole [00:02:46] That change will kind of fully take place in May because I'm sort of booked out with collaborations until then but I didn't want to wait that long to start doing advice episodes because I love them so much and I really do miss doing them. So the first one, as mentioned, will be on February 3rd, live streaming on YouTube. If you have questions you would like answered, please send them to pynkspots@gmail.com and I will add them to the queue. And I believe I will be adding those as podcast episodes because, like I said, that will become the main format of the show. So if you can't make the live stream, you'll see those pop up here as well.

Nichole [00:03:29] And then lastly, just to push the YouTube channel one more time, I will be doing live stream events with my friends. The first one is on February 14th, which is Valentine's Day. I'll be live streaming with Mexie and Catherine, both of self-titled YouTube channels. We're going to talk about sex and the patriarchy. Some of you may have seen Mexie's recent video about sex, sex work, sexual liberation, and how we talk about that in leftist spaces. It is a really great video, it generated a lot of conversation amongst her audience. We've had some really amazing Discord calls through their Total Liberation Discord Channel about sex, and it's been really cool to hear from everyone. So we feel like we have a lot more to say. She feels like she has a lot more to say and I certainly, as always, have a lot to say. So we're going to do this pretty big deal live stream event on February 14th. I do not believe I will be posting that as a podcast episode. I kind of want these live stream events to be a YouTube affair. So that's just one more reason to follow me over there if you're open to it. And I would really love to hear from all of you. Just any experiences you have around sex and the patriarchy, any thoughts you have.

Nichole [00:04:54] All right, that's it. Sorry for all the notes, but it's a little hard doing collaborations to get information out there. So I just wanted to take a moment to touch base, let you know some changes that will be coming up. Be aware, I'm making a lot of noise for some reason in the beginning of this episode. Normally I would silence my end of the audio, but Sebastian wasn't able to record his audio on his side because he was using his phone to do the Live stream and it didn't allow for the voice memo app and the other app to be running at the same time. So we had to use the combined live stream audio. So anyway, just know that I quiet down after a while and I will definitely make sure to mute my side of the conversation while I'm not speaking in the future, especially if I have to be clicking or typing anything. So with all of that, I'm very excited to release you to listen to this amazing episode.

Nichole [00:06:00] Hello, beautiful people! Welcome the Pynk Spots. So as highly advertised in the pink spotlight today, heh heh, we have the one, the only, Christopher Sebastian! Henceforth he will be referred to as Sebastian. Sebastian is well-known in the vegan world as an author, researcher and lecturer. He uses a multidisciplinary approach that includes media theory, political science and social psychology to examine how human relationships with other animals shape our attitudes about race, sexuality and class. He also rocks knee high socks like no one you've ever seen. So you got to appreciate the brains and the beauty. So, hey Sebastian, thanks for being here today. How has 2021 been for you so far?

Sebastian [00:06:55] Thank you so much for having me, and 2021 has been an interesting couple of weeks so far. We've watched so much history unfolding in the past couple of weeks. So like personally, I'm OK. But on a macro level I also am just like, I have so many emotions about like, for the future. Hopefully the rest of 2021 turns out a lot better than like the beginning of it.

Nichole [00:07:23] Yes, yeah. It started off with a bang, that's for sure. So, you know, this is a very exciting collaboration for me because your work has definitely, the more academic side of what you do has obviously shaped how I speak about animal liberation, how I speak about the intersections of human and animal oppression. But I think in certain ways, you've actually had a much bigger impact on me with the work you've done around how you talk about activism, these spaces that we're in, the concepts we use to enact our activism. You know, more of this almost social side of what we're trying to do here. I found a lot of your work to be really validating and really illuminating. And so that's sort of more of what I want to focus on with you today. Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you.

Nichole [00:08:22] So to start us off high level, tell us what your general approach to activism is, how do you like to connect with people? I know I just listened to your interview on The Vegan Vanguard, which was awesome and everyone should go check it out if you haven't already. And you talked about, I thought it was really interesting that you talked about taking kind of an origin approach to how you talk to people who may be saying something ignorant or may have a different viewpoint from you, as a way to kind of depersonalize conflict. So I'd love to have you kind of explain that more and expand on it here.

Sebastian [00:08:56] Yeah, yeah. Like, I think that overall we have a tendency in activist circles to have these hot takes, especially in this like, you know, very direct social media culture that we're living in. Where like, OK, something happens and then you immediately react to it. And like taking a reactionary approach, I think is sometimes, pretty often actually, not the most productive thing to do. And like actually kind of sitting in your discomfort with something that has recently occurred is probably a lot more productive than like taking like an immediate jump into the fray to like, you know, sort of like dissect a situation where we may not even have all the information yet. Also, like there is a lot of, particularly in animal activism, there is a lot of hot take culture around, like making like flat, one-dimensional comparisons of marginalized groups, which is not always the most productive thing to do. And we've seen that reflected or blow up over and over again. It seems like every couple of years we're having the same discussions. And that like, you know, that's awesome... He says facetiously.

Sebastian [00:10:08] But like yeah, so like, you know, rather than like having these sort of knee jerk reactions, I think it is better, least for me it's been demonstratedly better to actually step back and see where we can actually connect with another person based on like, you know, where did this originate? Where like, you know, what was, what were the, you know, what are the historical actions that precipitated this moment that we're living in where we can find commonality? And I say this over and over again but like, I didn't just invent this, I didn't make this up, this isn't me. You know, this is like after, you know, after years of actually reading, like, you know, like history and social theory from people that are way smarter than me, I'm like, well, this is kind of a thing that works. And like it has been truly effective for me in the long term as a result.

Sebastian [00:11:03] So that is why I recommend it to other people. Let's look at what, you know, what the origin of the situation is and where we can find commonality rather than like, you're bad because of this thing. Or, you know, here is a like, you know, here is a hyper like, you know, insensitive or inflammatory situation that, you know, I'm going to juxtapose next to another situation, and like, these two things react the same. And it's like, all the nuance has been picked up and chucked out the window! And like, you know, and now you just have a bunch of angry people on both sides, both of whom actually are right! And like that's [inaudible] bad if people actually step back and like, you know, and didn't rely on these incendiary and inflammatory things, we would probably find that our commonality is much higher than we tend to think about it.

Nichole [00:11:58] Yeah, I've definitely found that in my activism, and especially in, you know, I've always talked about how powerful I think our just day to day existence can be in terms of activism and effecting change. Not necessarily in the potentially ablest way of like, you're a billboard for veganism or you're a billboard for, you know, you have to live this joyful, healthy, happy life. But I mean more in the sense of being grounded in your principles, being content and well educated in what you believe, and being comfortable with the fact that... not comfortable in the sense that you're OK with it, but just comfortable in the sense that you understand that there's a lot of people who may not have that same education as you, who may not have come to the same conclusions as you yet, and yet you're still here in this world trying to navigate it and make connections with people.

Nichole [00:12:52] And I just love you talking about talking about origin, because I've found, you know, like I had a friend who is Korean American, and he just started talking one day about how he looks at other Asian people sometimes and feels embarrassed because they're being too Asian. And that opened this, like, amazing door to have this conversation about like white as the default and where that comes from. And he was so receptive to it, you know, and it's like these spaces I just feel every day there's always some little space where you can just, like, connect with someone else on something that they're expressing is a concern to them, or a lived experience of theirs, and find a way to kind of make that connection.

Nichole [00:13:42] That doesn't include, I just think in vegan spaces there's such like black and white thinking, and there is such a vilification of people who eat animals, that it's like even if you do manage to convert someone through those tactics, then they're going to become that kind of activist too. Right, where they're just out attacking everybody. And then I think that's when you fall into a lot of harmful traps of crossing the line and using examples in a really traumatizing kind of way. And I think for me, I've never really understood why we're trying to get people over to our side in any ideology, through trauma.

Sebastian [00:14:25] That's it, creating more trauma. It's like...

Nichole [00:14:27] Yeah, like why?

Sebastian [00:14:29] Like yeah, I don't know, like I don't know how to explain that to people any more clearly. And like, this is like, you know, like I guess I understand your reasons. I actually saw, and I regret that I don't remember who shared this, but if someone had written like a social media post about this. Like why do you think this is going to be the most effective thing? Like what is it about, like, you know, about this that drives you? And the answer was like, you know, a lot of our activism is punitive. It is, like it's rooted in retributive justice, like retribution, because people need to be punished for like the enslavement and exploitation of other animals. And so it is in many ways gratifying or validating to, you know, to like, you know, elicit these responses out of people. But it is not necessarily effective. In fact, it very rarely is effective if you actually look at the data behind it, like, you know, this isn't the best thing to do, so.

Nichole [00:15:42] Yeah. Yeah and it's always stunning to me how people don't seem to... Especially people who aren't open to learning the connections between different types of oppression, how much that type of behavior is replicating a type of supremacy or type of exceptionalism. Right, so it's like, OK, you might get someone to go vegan, but you're doing it in this way that is very, like, replicating of like a colonizing sort of behavior or like a white supremacist sort of behavior. Because often those are the vegans who go out and attack other people. It may be people of color, maybe disabled people, or whoever it is for not being vegan. And it's like, we're just, I just used to have this argument all the time, like people wanting to get the bro types, you know, convert them to veganism. And I'm like, but at what cost? Like at what cost? Because now the rest of us feel less safe. And is that really the mode that we're trying to go down? Anyway.

Nichole [00:16:51] Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the retribute - I cannot say that word - retribution based justice, we'll go with that. I wanted to talk to you about that because I have struggled lately with... So I realized I am autistic last year and it explains so much to me about the experiences I've had in activist spaces and being so anxious and confused all the time as to like what the rules are and being afraid of, you know, doing something wrong. So I have, over the last few years, tried to critique that. But I've learned that talking about cancel culture is not an effective way to do that, because canceling is a tool that was created by Black women to try to take some power back from power structures. So I was just wondering if you had any general, like, ideas about how we can really critique, because I know we both have experienced this sort of form of... What's the word I'm looking for? Because I want to say canceling, but I don't want to say that. But this form of like, almost like a posse...

Sebastian [00:18:13] Toxic engagement? Yeah.

Nichole [00:18:14] Yes, thank you.

Sebastian [00:18:15] The mob style, like the [cross-talk].

Nichole [00:18:16] Yeah! And I'm like, how do we talk about this in a way where we can effectively critique it and make more people feel safe to engage with that critique without maybe being harmful or using the wrong phrases to talk about what we're trying to actually get at.

Sebastian [00:18:37] Yeah. Once I figure that out, I am going to write a book about it and I will sell that book for millions of dollars.

Nichole [00:18:44] And I will be the first in line to buy it.

Sebastian [00:18:48] Because we all know that I love the grift. But yeah, like that's not something that I think it's very easy to answer. Like how, like for myself, like I've been canceled like fifteen hundred times and so then every time it happens I'm like, OK, like here we are again. Like I have decided that the best thing for me to do, and for my own mental health, is to like just keep on keeping on. Like, you know, it's like, you said this thing or you like, you know, did this or you wore blue shoes and now you're canceled. And I'm like well, like, you know, I've been canceled again and like, you know, and this will definitely not be the last time. So I'll just add this to the list and, you know, and just continue living like my most authentic truth for me.

Sebastian [00:19:40] Like, this isn't, like this is going to be, like it's going to be different for different situations, too. Like sometimes people get canceled and I'm like, yeah, like that was pretty a cancelable event. And like, you know, and that line is going to be different for everybody because it's not, like it's a moving target. Like it's impossible because no two people are the same, and no two people's reactions to like, you know, certain words and situations are going to be the same. Like in my own personal experiences, like one time - oh, like can I talk about the times that I've been canceled?

Nichole [00:20:16] I mean, I would love to hear it, but that's your call to make. I will also talk about times I've been canceled if it helps? We can be canceled together for talking about being canceled, yes.

Sebastian [00:20:29] Bear our sins. Yeah, no for real. I like, I remember one of the earliest times... so embarrassing! I remember one of the earliest times that I'd been canceled. And it's because, and I thought that I put up all the disclaimers that like would keep me safe and I failed at that, obviously. But I had put up some recipes - you can probably still look through my social media and find this. But like, I have a bunch of recipes because like I struggle with my weight. Like, I like, you know, I like there are so many reasons. But like this is actually, this is a really good and important story. But like for myself to help control by weight, one of the things that is very helpful for me is to like, you know, is to watch my carbohydrate-dense foods. A lot of foods, like vegan foods or plant-based foods are going to be carb-heavy. And so finding like, you know, a variety of recipes that that are not carb heavy, that curb like sugar cravings and things like that, like those like, you know, that's hard to come by. They can be pretty repetitive because it's like the same five or six things.

Sebastian [00:21:40] And so like I had said to other people, listen, if you're in a similar boat to me and you want to eat - this is before, like, keto became like super famous and everything. But like, you know, if you're in a similar boat to me and like, you know, and you need to drop a couple of pounds, this is the easy way to do it if you are sensitive to carbs. And like a lot of people thought that these recipes were super helpful, but that there was like a very small but vocal minority of people who said, no, this is evil because you're promoting diet culture. And I'm like, this is like, I was very specific, like, if this doesn't apply to you or, you know, or if this is like in any way like insulting to you, or this is very difficult to you, like, you know, like this is not for you. This isn't the post for you.

Nichole [00:22:26] Right.

Sebastian [00:22:26] Like, you know, keep it moving and it's fine, you don't have to participate in this discussion. But like, you know, the existence of this post and the existence of these recipes alone was enough for this minority of people to feel very, very aggrieved. And like, you know, and they continued to tell me how, like any type of like, you know - and this is the thing, the sort of black and white thinking that people have. Like irrespective of your, you know, your social or political views. Like it's the idea of black and white thinking that I think is so dangerous. It's like, you know, any discussion at all about losing weight for any reason is wrong, bad and evil.

Nichole [00:23:07] Yeah.

Sebastian [00:23:07] I happen to have, like, very specific medical reasons why, like, you know, like I need to maintain a certain weight. One of the being that, like, I have osteo synovial chondromatosis, which is a very fancy way of saying that, like, you know, that like I've got really effed up joints, specifically in my knees. And like, I didn't know this until about seven years ago. And I went to like, you know, an osteopathic surgeon who had performed like two surgeries on me and helped me to run again, which is something that I hadn't done in years. And, you know, one of the things that actually contributes to this condition is like, you know, like subtle variations on my weight. Like, you know, more than like 15 pounds, like that's going to aggravate my condition. And so that's a legit medical reason why I want to maintain my weight when, like, you know, when I'm like, OK, like, I'm starting to actually feel physical pain. I'm going into the danger zone. My knees can't handle this. Like, this is something that I can do that I can control because this is a condition that's going to deteriorate as I get older. You know, that is just like a functional, easy way for me to prevent, like, you know, or delay worsening of this condition.

Sebastian [00:24:22] Should I have to disclose my medical condition in order to like, you know, in order to feel comfortable with, like, you know, losing weight? How do I balance that, like, against sharing information with other people who may be living with a different condition, or even the same condition, and not even know? Like, I also have ulcerative colitis. There are certain, like various foods can absolutely tear my stomach up. Like I've learned to control my colitis by controlling the amount of dietary fiber that I consume. And like, you know, but like I also recognize the fiber is one of the things that keeps me like, you know, that keeps me feeling healthy and looking good. And so, like, I'm like these are like, you know, these are like oppositional things, but like, you know, like diet plays a role in all of these things.

Sebastian [00:25:11] And like, you know, and so now like it's either, like am I ever allowed to talk about that? Like for, you know, for the time being, like, you know, that has actually gotten so bad that like, you know, that the people involved, it worried me so bad that then my mental health started to go to the toilet. And so I'm like, now I'm dealing with physical conditions, and I'm dealing with like emotional and mental trauma as well, because, like, you know, people disagree with me on the internet. And I'm like, am I going to let the internet do this to me? And I'm like, you know what, we're just going to close this discussion. Close the post, close the photos, no more recipes. We're never going to do this again. And like, you know, that was unfortunate for me.

Sebastian [00:25:53] Like another time, and maybe some of your listeners would be familiar with this when I had been canceled. And I do, like I look back fondly at my cancelations because I'm like, you know what, I let it stress me out in the moment, and I really shouldn't have. Was when, like, you know, like this was in, again on social media because this is where a lot of these discussions take place. Like, you know, like there was a bunch of people who wanted to, and I'm not going to name names or anything, but there were a bunch of people, again a small minority of people, who had targeted a disabled activist for writing like a post on their own social media channels and their own website about like, you know, about disability. And about, specifically about canceling people and not knowing, like, you know, their ability, you know, in certain settings.

Sebastian [00:26:51] And because this person was white, like, you know, one of the things that was weaponized against them was like, you know, was race. Like, you know what, I am automatically right because, like, I'm a Black person and so by like, you know. And this is probably going to provoke our cancelation. Really at this point I don't care. Like, you know, I'm Black and so therefore, you know what? Like, this is a thing that is racist. And like, you know, and like and because I am Black - not because I am right and not because, like, I've actually researched this information, like, you know, like you're wrong. And you're also racist and you're bad and you must be canceled. Like almost verbatim those words.

Sebastian [00:27:34] And like, you know, and this was after like watching like, you know, these same individuals involved go through, like, you know, and literally systematically do this to several people. And so I'm recognizing this pattern of like, behavior that reflects malignant narcissism in many ways. And like, you know, and not driven by a desire to help people to be better, but to banish people from communities. And, you know, and this for me was kind of personal because that person involved was actually a personal friend of mine. And I'm like, I can't in good conscience sit by anymore and allow this to happen. So I'm going to speak up and I'm going to use like actual research and theory from Black women to explain why I disagree. Not that you're wrong, not that you're bad, but why I disagree with your take on this situation. Because the conversation is actually a much larger conversation about how digital media influences us and how, like, you know, how digital media is actually used and what levels of access people have to understanding how the digital media is like, you know, is created, consumed and distributed to many different populations of people.

Sebastian [00:28:51] And like, you know, and yeah, like I don't expect everybody, like one of my favorite phrases is like, oh well, like, you can educate yourself and you can Google it. And I always have said to people, this is a dangerous thing to say because like, you know, people are influenced to some degree by their previous searches and by the filter bubbles that they aggregate themselves into. If you tell someone who you suspect of being racist to educate yourself, Google is like an evil genie. If you like, you know, if you type something into a search bar, chances are you're going to get exactly what you're looking for. And like, you know, and that can be good or bad, most often bad. And so, like, if you send someone else off to educate themselves about anti-racism, your chances of them coming back as a sentient MAGA hat are just as high as them coming back being like Kimberlé Crenshaw's greatest scholar. And you just don't know which way that's going to go.

Sebastian [00:29:47] And so does that make you responsible for educating them? Eff no, like, you know, obviously not. But at the same time, like, you know what? We just throw these generalized statements out there as if it's OK. Not understanding how, like the people who own and dominate these digital media spaces actually manipulate it in their favor, and they make it much more likely that people are going to come across information that reinforces their existing biases rather than like coming across, like coming back with genuine, authentic information about racism. And this is coming from a Black woman. Like, you know, I had cited scholars like Safiya Noble, who had written Algorithms of Oppression, among others. And so with me having with this like, you know, with this information, literally citing books, literally sharing papers and attempting to educate, oh no, you canceled too. So like now we found another, like everybody over here, like, you know, he hates Black women and marginalized women.

Sebastian [00:30:49] And I'm like, actually, like, you know what, I disagreed with you and I used research from another Black woman. And so what we're seeing now is like, you know, these divisions of identity don't actually work because you're trying to weaponize race and gender, like against someone who's actually using, like, research from women, from persons of your same background. And so, like, who do you believe in this situation? You know, and the internet and social media has, like, amplified this in really unhealthy ways.

Sebastian [00:31:22] And so, you know, the plot twist of all of this is that me being very public and actually saying, I have to disagree with this and here's why, actually revealed a pattern of like malignant narcissistic behavior of this person, that several other people experienced. And were like, actually like, you know, what I been afraid to speak up too and I've been afraid of making mistakes or saying anything or even engaging online, because I know that this person is constantly watching and looking for an opportunity to like, you know, to like stab me in the neck. And so, like, you know that actually ended up being like a happy ending, but that doesn't happen all the time.

Sebastian [00:32:05] Now, is this like a case study in which like, you know, people shouldn't experience consequences for saying horrible, bad, racist things and then cry victim when they do that? Like, absolutely not, because that's a different situation. But like yeah, you know what, every situation has to be taken on an individual basis. And we have to, again, engage with people based on nuance and understanding where they're coming from and trying to find some commonality, rather than looking for a reason why we can make this person go away altogether. And that's, you know, it just comes back to the original thing that we were talking about. So those are my stories of cancelation. Big fun, big fun.

Nichole [00:32:48] I have so many thoughts, but I really, you had written a blog post about that kind of, I think, centered around the idea of disclosure and, should I really have to disclose things that maybe I'm not comfortable disclosing in order to have a seat at the table of a conversation? And that always really resonated with me as well. And I think it kind of fits into what you're saying is that when we get so far into... I don't even know what to call it, like oppression Olympics, you know, what's that distorted like identity politics? Like I don't know what we're supposed to call it, but when we get so far into that, we're like, literally you have to have a certain identity before you can even speak on anything. It just can be really harmful, and I think it can, I think I would always prefer someone to feel comfortable asking a question or being part of the conversation, then to be so terrified to engage at all.

Nichole [00:33:58] And I think what you're getting at too, is really important, is that it's extremely difficult to talk about these things because I feel like once you start talking about it, everyone goes to like Nazi. Right, like every time you try to talk about cancel culture or identity or anything like that, people always go to like, well, we shouldn't have like racists, like white supremacists, being able to say whatever they want. And it's like, I agree, I get that. But there's a whole world of other situations that we're encountering that are not that. You know, and that we're not really doing our best to make people feel safe in these spaces.

Nichole [00:34:38] Like for myself, like I think you had brought it up in the context of like a feminist discussion that was going on, and people were telling you that because you're a man, you weren't allowed to, like, have any part of the conversation, but you had had experiences that were relevant to the conversation being had. And I know for myself, you know, I was questioning my gender and my sexuality for a while. And through that journey, I started to realize that some of the narrative that we have around like a queer identity or a queer journey was actually really harmful and was keeping me from knowing that I was queer. You know, it's like the stories of like everyone has the same experience of knowing that they're queer, they're gay or whatever. And I just had picked up on, there are a lot of spaces that seem to be really gatekeeping, like they didn't want people to know that they were queer, right? They didn't want people to be like, oh, shit, that's me too.

Nichole [00:35:39] And I felt so fragile and vulnerable in this questioning that I had that I just was never comfortable disclosing that. So there are just so many conversations that I didn't participate in that I would have really liked to because of that. So I don't know if you have any tips, but it's something I've been, or any thoughts, but it's something I've been thinking about for a while is like, how do we create spaces where we try to keep some guardrails on things like "splaining" and fragility and talking over people, but also make space for people to, like, be part of the conversation without needing to disclose things that are really personal to them.

Nichole [00:36:29] Because I also, like I have medical conditions and I have certain issues and I can relate to that. Like I've done, I've had to really try different diet regimens and different things to try to heal. And I've always felt really uncomfortable, like we're not allowed to talk about that stuff in public. At least not without having my platform be about being disabled and disclosing my conditions and all of this. And it's like, you know, there's a lot of people struggling and if, you know, if I have something that's helpful, I just want to be able to share it with people and not have to be labeled like, I'm ablest or I'm fat shaming or anything like that. And I just think it's just gotten really difficult for people to be able to engage with each other when they're in that sort of like questioning space or when they don't want to disclose certain trauma that they've experienced.

Sebastian [00:37:28] Yeah, once again, I wish I had answers here. Like right now, instead of answers, I have to end up with more questions because people who are experiencing very similar things to you and I, end up in my inbox.

Nichole [00:37:39] Yup, same.

Sebastian [00:37:39] And one of the most popular things I have from people who are messaging me for the first time is always, I didn't want to say this publicly or like, you know what, I wanted to come to you because, like, I didn't feel like, you know, you were going to give me that stabbing that we were talking about earlier. And so I just had to ask you about like X, Y and Z, whatever the situation is. And like, I don't get to all those messages. Because there are a lot of them. My inbox doth overfloweth with those conversations. And like, you know, for a while I thought, well maybe I can address this by making public posts or writing essays or like making carrousel posts or like, you know, some sort of infographics or social media where, like, everyone can benefit from this. But I already have a backlog of things that I'm already writing about right now. And the way that my executive dysfunction is set up, like I ain't even getting to that.

Nichole [00:38:42] Heyyy! I live that life.

Sebastian [00:38:45] Right! And so here you are, I'm like... Like I, it just, like it creates more problems because, like, you know, you can't help everyone that you want to help. You can't do as much work as you would like to do. And like, you know, and like oftentimes I personally feel like I'm failing people. Especially because, like, you know, my immediate response to like, if you send me a message, I'm not going to answer for at least five days. Because, like, you know, look, I actually have messages... [laughter] as if right on cue, right across the top of my screen right now, like I have notifications coming in.

Sebastian [00:39:22] Like, you know, like we have this culture of immediacy once again, where, like, we kind of think or hope that people are going to get right back to you. And because I know that, like, I can't do that, I also know that if I read your message, like, you know, depending on what platform you send it to me across, you're going to see a timestamp showing that I did read it and then that increases expectation, which increases my anxiety. And so we go through this sort of like arms race of like anxiety versus like expectation and then I never do it. So I have people who are waiting for me from like five months ago and then they just eventually delete and block me because they think I'm being a diva and they don't know. No, I'm actually mentally ill.

Nichole [00:40:05] I feel that.

Sebastian [00:40:06] So yeah, it compounds the problems we already have existing.

Nichole [00:40:09] Yeah, it can be a lot to carry to be a person who is, because I feel like so much of your work is really brave and I know that's kind of a corny word to use, but I've just always really appreciated... There's been so many times where I've been really chewing on something and I feel like, this isn't right, this isn't right. And I have these thoughts, but I'm like, oh, is this white fragility? Is this something I need to dismantle? And then I'll read one of your posts and I'm like, oh, you know, like this is a legitimate line of thought. You know, this is very validating to me that this is something I'm picking up on that just isn't right and it's not necessary - I mean, you always have to do the work to be like, am I being fragile, am I being whatever? But it's like sometimes shit is just fucked up. Sometimes things are wrong. And especially being mentally ill, being disabled, being neurodivergent, like you do pick up on a lot of stuff that isn't OK in how we treat each other in these spaces.

Nichole [00:41:12] And then, I think I appreciated your work, too, because honestly, at the time, I felt like because I was white I couldn't say anything. But I was like, oh you just can't say anything. I was like no matter who, you just can't say anything.

Sebastian [00:41:34] No, this is actually, like this is another, like, really fascinating thing. Because, like, you would use the phrase just now, like, you know, is this white fragility? And so, like, I find that we're at another crossroads right now, or at least maybe I'm just at a crossroads all by myself. Because like, you know, like looking, like let's talk about white fragility for a moment.

Nichole [00:41:57] I would love to.

Sebastian [00:41:59] Because the phrase white fragility and like all of the tangential phrases that have been developed as an offshoot of white fragility, like an entire discourse around it, like male fragility or like, you know, like cis fragility. Any of these other types of like fragile responses are all based around, like, you know, the language or the nomenclature of Robin DiAngelo who literally wrote the book on white fragility. And for a long time we all looked at this, like for a few years now, let's be real. And we said, oh, that's the framework behind which we should like, you know, all get and talk about how, like, you know, what is actually responsible for these responses and how people react to situations. And to discuss the type of mechanisms that we employ in order to maintain normative whiteness. Or like maleness or whatever have you.

Sebastian [00:42:59] And then last summer happened. Last summer, being like this wave of racial consciousness that was motivated by like the anguish and grief that Black people have collectively been experiencing for generations and kind of culminated around the murder of George Floyd. And so you see like a bunch of people across the country, across the world, who are actually expanding their racial literacy for the first time. And so you see what books end up on the bestseller list and White Fragility is always like, you know, on there. And for the first time, I started to see these critiques of White Fragility and Robin DiAngelo, and she's not so special. Why has she written the book about this? And, I don't even think that white fragility is a thing. And, you know, and so, like, this white woman has created this scholarship around - and you know, like I've listened to the podcast, I've read the critiques and I'm like, wow, this is very like, you know, this is very provocative. This is very real. And like these are really well thought out responses and everything to it.

Nichole [00:44:06] Mm hmm.

Sebastian [00:44:07] But, because there's always a big old hairy but. Like I said, nuance is everything, it's never black and white. But, you know, we still actually use the phrase white fragility that came from this great woman and her white scholarship. And so, like, you know, like, does this now mean that all of the fragility discourse, because we've collectively canceled Robin, or I'm assuming, like many of us... Some of us? I don't know. Like have decided that, like, you know what, Robin DiAngelo ain't shit. This white woman ain't shit. She came along and she, why is she a race scholar? And she needs to sit down. And it's like, OK, OK. Like, I feel like you have a point. You know, based on what you've said and like, you know, and the rationale that you provided, like you know, I get a lot of what you're saying. But also we are still keeping the scholarship in the discussion as though...

Nichole [00:45:02] Hmm, I see what you're saying.

Sebastian [00:45:05] Once again, like if you are like so heavily invested in this black and white thinking, then like, you know what, white fragility has to go out the window. But also you want to keep white fragility. Like, you know, we're always supposed to like, listen to Black and brown people, but not all Black and brown people disagree. I'm never going to, I'm probably never going to find common ground with Candace Owens and Omarosa. And like, I'm not going to find common ground with these people because they're Black women. And so like, is it always listen to the - like we have to come to a place where we are able to, like, engage with thoughts and ideas based on their own merit and not their identity.

Sebastian [00:45:46] And really, like again, I will re-emphasize this point. This isn't something new that I am saying, like the very woman who coined the phrase or coined the phrase identity politics, this is hard work. Like, you know, she said this herself. So like this is actually literature and scholarship that's been in existence literally for decades before I even came along and open minded my big mouth. And I think that a lot of us are not invested in actually going back and doing The Work TM, because if we did we would probably already be having better conversations. But, hot takes, we're in Hot Takes City, like you know what, Robin DiAngelo? Get her out of here. White Fragility? All right, we'll keep it a little bit.

Sebastian [00:46:32] But, you know, we have to, like can we talk? Can we politics about this because I don't think that, you know, I don't think that wholesale cancelation or wholesale embrace of ideas is what's up. Like I think a lot of what she wrote has value, it's actually given me language to talk about things that I didn't know about before. And like, you know, and so, like, I don't think that, like did she profit from this? Did she write a book about this? Did she go on a bunch of talk shows about this? Yes. Yes she did. Can we talk about, like, how she should be actually like, you know, use her platform more responsibly to, you know, to reinforce the work of Black and brown people who came before her that allowed her to create this? Yes, we should. And, you know, and so yeah, that's where I'm at. That's where I'm at.

Sebastian [00:47:21] But I'm really glad that you brought up white fragility because I'm like, yeah, like fragility discourse is real and like, you know, and I think that, like, I think that we should keep it. I don't think that like, sorry, sorry to everybody out there who's listening to the podcast live or in the future, like, because I know that I'm probably going to disappoint a whole bunch of people. But once again, this is where I'm at right now. This is my most authentic response based on the information that I've got available to me at this time. And if you've got a different opinion, I might change that tomorrow. I might change that tomorrow because I don't know. I don't know, sway! Like you know, I don't know, but that's the thing. We have this almost expectation that people are like, we have sprung forth from the brow of Zeus knowing all of the things. And so people are coming into the conversations being like what's a gender?

Nichole [00:48:11] [laughing] Yeah.

Sebastian [00:48:16] You know, I don't even know right now. But like we can find out together.

Nichole [00:48:20] Right.

Sebastian [00:48:20] If you're not coming in, like, you know, with the six million wasn't enough sweatshirt from the capital insurgency like last week, I think I can probably find a space to work with you. Like, you know, like we all have our lines but like you know, but for me, I'm like, listen, like if somebody doesn't work with this person or these persons, and have more thoughtful, productive conversations, it's going to go the other way very quickly. And, you know, and then you lose people. I mean, they either say, you know what, eff this, I don't even care. Like, I have a lot to do. I'm working for eight dollars an hour and like, you know what? And I don't even have enough hours to like to buy my food - eff all of this!

Nichole [00:49:08] Yeah!

Sebastian [00:49:08] I don't have time or the money to go to college, I barely have time to actually engage in this conversation with you right now. Why do I need the extra headache and the emotional abuse of this person, like, giving me a lecture right here, cha-chow, you know, because I didn't know the correct answer to the number of genders. And that's where I am. That's where I'm at right now. So, I'ma just drink my actual tea. For the listeners later on, I'm literally drinking tea as we have this tea, so.

Nichole [00:49:41] I love it. Yeah, I love that rant, if we can call it that. We love a rant around here. And I kind of feel similarly about, I mean it's, I guess it's different but kind of same vein of thought, about like phobic or phobia and just the overuse of it and how everything is like, everything you do is like some kind of phobic thing. And I think about it especially around gender, because I myself have had such a hard time like figuring out what my gender is, what gender is, how to refer to myself. I do struggle with other people's pronouns and I do struggle with things like when someone transitions, like my brain has a really hard time with not referring to them as the gender that they're not in the past. And, you know, it's like I just felt so bad and all of that's considered transphobic or whatever, but it's like, it just is how my brain works and it's how a lot of people's brains work.

Nichole [00:50:43] So it's like, that is my job to do the best that I can do and like to try to learn, right, and to try to keep going. But it's just been interesting, like becoming a person who is genderqueer and gets misgendered a lot and misgenders themselves a lot, that I just hate the rhetoric that it's like it's so easy. You know, It's so easy to do this or to do that. And it's like, well it's not easy for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that they're hateful. It just means that either their brains are having a hard time making the change, which is normal, or they're ignorant.

Nichole [00:51:22] Sometimes people are hateful, of course, but I just hate, there's just so much rhetoric around like anything you do is instantly like you're a fucking monster and you should just have to go away forever. And it's like, I just love that you brought up gender because it's like gender is so fucking complicated. Like who isn't confused by gender? You know, I have done a lot of reading and a lot of research on it, and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface. And we can't expect like Joe Shmo in the grocery store or like someone's Midwestern mom, like random Midwestern mom, to like understand like gender theory right out of the gate. But if they're trying, you know, if they're giving it a shot and they're really trying, then that's good enough. So anyway.

Sebastian [00:52:09] One of my friends actually said something that has stuck with me and I repeat it like over and over again. She is brilliant. She is a trans woman of color who is a lecturer at Columbia. And she said, and I repeat her words often, like, you know, some people lead with their trauma instead of leading with their heart. That's a problem, that's something that I have to, you know, that I had to internalize and that I like, you know, and that I have to tell myself daily. Like, you know, because it applies to so many situations.

Sebastian [00:52:43] Like, you know, even as one of the many people who has messaged me, there's a person I've never heard from before, like messaged me on Twitter. Which, by the way, is the worst way to get in touch with me because I am so rarely on Twitter. But they were in my Twitter box and they were asking me, like, you know, like tell me about indigenous people and, you know, and do you support indigenous, like, animal use? My initial response was, I'm not fucking dealing with this. Like why is this person coming at me with, like again, like this feels like a setup. This question feels like a setup. Because I've talked about this before, I've talked about this a hundred times. Like, you know, and there's not going to be a right answer. Like, if I say yes, like, you know, then it's like then one group of people are outraged, if I say no, another group of people are going to be outraged. And really my answer is neither one of those, because the true answer, once again, nuance, it's complicated.

Sebastian [00:53:39] I don't know what indigenous means because a blanket term for all people who have not been colonized, I think is actually not correct. What indigenous people are you talking about, sir and/or ma'am? And what conversation do you want to have about what type of animal exploitation they're engaging in? Because if you're talking about Inuit people or Yupik people, like that's completely separate from talking about Native Americans and even among Native Americans there are several different tribes, none of which are exactly the same. And so like the idea that there is this blanket like approval or disapproval of indigenous practices or indigenous people is, to me, flawed on its foundation because like everybody is different. And just because someone is indigenous doesn't make them automatically a virtuous person. That's the trope of the noble savage, which again, is racist itself.

Sebastian [00:54:38] What did I have to do when I read that question? Close that inbox right back up and tell myself, I'm leading with my trauma right now because I've been traumatized so many times by people in the past who were trying to engage with, like, not the best intentions. And I'm making assumptions about this person that are completely wrong, probably. And I had to remind myself, like yet another great thinker, Sherry Colb who teaches at Cornell and who wrote the book Mind If I Order the Cheeseburger?, answered all the vegan questions in one book ten years ago. She's brilliant, she's wonderful. And I was fortunate enough and privileged enough to actually attend to talk of hers. And like during the Q&A, she actually said something that was so important. She said, always talk to people as though this is you answering the question for the very first time. Unless you have very good reason to believe that this person is being a piece of shit.

Sebastian [00:55:35] And no matter how many times you have answered this question before, where do you get your protein? You know, what about B12? What about the indigenous people? Always engage with people, because you know what? It probably is the first time this person is asking that question. Don't lead with your trauma, lead with you heart. And that's hard to do, that's hard for me to do. I almost have to put it on a Post-it note and stick it on my bathroom mirror because it's that hard to do. And I'm not always successful. I'm not always - man eff this person, what are you, get out of my face, like don't you have something else to do? Like you know what, go educate yourself because I wrote about this already 500 times. You know, that's what I'm inclined to respond with. That's my trauma. That's my trauma. That's not like, you know, that's not leadership. And I have to remember that. I have to remember that and constantly remind myself, because it is a road, it is a process, and it's not easy.

Nichole [00:56:30] Yeah, well, and I think that's the issue in general with these spaces, however we address it, however we refer to it, whatever we're supposed to do, I think it's, from what I've observed, it's a lot of people acting out of trauma at each other. You know, a lot of this canceling is the problematic, whatever we're supposed to call it, is traumatized people traumatizing other people in order to feel a sense of safety and power and security. Right, like they're above, this isn't going to happen to me, I'm going to be the one doing it, kind of mentality. And it's just really sad and also just really abusive.

Nichole [00:57:21] And I can have a lot of empathy for it because I have a lot of trauma and I, same thing, like there are times when I'm like, you need to just close the window, move on, because you're not able to engage with this, not out of a place of trauma. I feel that way still, even when I get someone coming at me really hard for messing up. And it's like, you know, it goes back to the fragility conversation, too. It's just like, it's not so much the fragility, I'm pretty good at like, I'm OK to hear, "you messed up," or, "here's my take on something." But it's that sense that like, it's this primal like, oh fuck. You know, like I grew up in a house where if you messed up, you weren't loved, and it's like that kind of response comes back out. And it's like, so when I get something like that, I have to know that however this person's phrased it, that's going to be kind of the filter I'm looking at it through. And I need to, like, let it sit for a minute and wait till I know I'm OK and then go back and see if it's something I want to respond to or not.

Nichole [00:58:31] But it's hard. It's hard being in these spaces because I do feel like there is a lot of trauma response type actions happening at all times. And it gets to where I feel like all of us just feel that really high alert kind of way all the time, and that makes us all more inclined to respond out of trauma.

Sebastian [00:58:55] Yes! Like, what in the world. Like, I had to actually sit back and laugh at myself. I'm like this person cares about indigenous people, Sebastian. You're about to jump at them through your inbox. What is wrong with you?! Trauma.

Nichole [00:59:13] Trauma. It's always trauma.

Sebastian [00:59:14] I'm not well, I'm not well. But I've come to be OK with that. I was like, you know, I've embraced all of the parts of me that are not OK. And like I feel like at this point I'm living my best life now.

Nichole [00:59:27] That's good.

Sebastian [00:59:27] As flawed and as broken as it is. Like I feel safer and more comfortable with myself and like, you know, and more secure in who I am. Because like, you know, I've taken the steps to increase, like, you know, my boundaries and set my own boundaries with other people. And like, you know, and I guess maybe that's the delicious pearl of wisdom that, I should say the delicious vegan pearl, you know, that I can get out there because God knows I don't have the answers, I don't feel like I do. But for me, like this is what's worked. I'm like, you know what, understanding my own trauma, processing it and not reproducing it on or at other people. That's the best thing that I can do. That and like, you know, watch Instagram comics and like, you know, and kittens and watch people on Tik-Tok be an absolute fool because that's my other way of dealing with it.

Nichole [01:00:26] Yeah. Well I can't imagine a better way to close the show than that. That was perfect, thank you. So I just want to thank you so much for being here today. This was a dream come true for me. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much, welcome back any time.

Sebastian [01:00:47] Samesies.

Nichole [01:00:47] And I have links to all your stuff in the show notes and in the description box below. But I want to give you an opportunity to promote, you do so much, so many different things. I want to give you an opportunity to promote and maybe focus people on where you want them to go, what you'd like them to engage with.

Sebastian [01:01:04] Oh, boy, this is like, this is the Oscar speech, isn't it?

Nichole [01:01:09] Yes.

Sebastian [01:01:09] What do I want people to do, where do I want them to go... I'm on the advisory council for Encompass. You can find them online at encompassmovement.org I believe... I'm messing that up. It is a relatively new organization run by Aryenish Birdie, which centers racial diversity, equity and inclusion within animal rights and animal centered organizations. And like she's doing amazing work and she actually has like a program, a development program, for like, you know, for racial equity leadership. So like there are so many opportunities for people to learn about Encompass, like sign up for the newsletter and like, you know, and take advantage of these often free, like, you know, things that are available to you.

Sebastian [01:01:57] I also love referring people to Food Empowerment Project. Lauren Ornelas is one of my favorite people, it would be irresponsible for me to not plug Lauren. Her work has been so enormously influential on me. If I had someone who like I feel like is an absolute mentor in these spaces, I would definitely say, you know, Lauren is one of the earliest people. And these aren't necessarily people or organizations that everybody is always going to agree with. You know what, like there were times when I would read stuff that Lauren had written, or watch talks that she had given and I'd say what? What is this, like this is madness. And then I'd come around and I'm like, she has always been right. Like she's brilliant.

Sebastian [01:02:42] And I think the Food Empowerment Project actually is one of the few organizations that does the work with like, such sensitivity when it comes to like, you know, centering like veganism, like, you know, and a plant based diet. But like considering how like our food choices and like food justice - which is an adjacent issue to veganism, but shouldn't be confused with veganism - like, you know, like impact the world around us and how we can actually, like, take into consideration how the food that, you know, the plant based food that we have in our system comes to our plates. Because there's so much that I didn't know. And Lauren was instrumental in, like, you know, in crafting this organization and the scholarship around, like, you know, helping me to understand that.

Sebastian [01:03:33] Like, of course I'm always going to [inaudible] Carol Adams because she is fantastic. And The Sexual Politics of Meat is what actually led me down a path interrogating like, you know, the racial connections to like animal exploitation and animal domination. Like Brenda Sanders does the most amazing food justice work. She's an undercover powerhouse because you'll never know what Brenda's working on. And if she actually like, you know, if you were to work on an intro for Brenda for like, you know, a program or an event, you would have to be very selective because you'll spend the entire hour just quoting her resume. Because that's how humble she is about, you know, about the work that she does. She make it known, but when you start tearing apart the pieces and start to look and it's like, holy smokes, Brenda has had her hand in literally everything the entire time.

Sebastian [01:04:25] Like and books. Books, books, books. Read books on theory, Marxist theory, books like, you know, read books on economic theory, read books on feminism, on Black feminism. Angela Yvonne Davis, like your bell hooks, your classic hallmarks. Read David Nibert, who wrote Animal Oppression and Capitalism, another foundational book to my understanding of the ways that race interacts with the species to create this sort of compound oppression. That's all that I can think of off the top of my head. There's so many people that I'm forgetting right now, so many amazing, like, you know, like scholars, activists, and like, you know, and people who are doing incredible work. So, like, I'll just continue pimping them on my social media and like, you know, and writing about them and citing them in my own work.

Nichole [01:05:21] Beautiful. And you can follow Christopher Sebastian on social media with the links below. So that's our show. We did it. It's done. We achieved it. We're going to go hang out in the after party just for a little bit. So children be warned, we're not hanging out for a long time today. But if you like what you saw or heard today, like, share, subscribe, leave me a review. Please check out Sebastian's links and his Patreon. He does really cool stuff over there, really cool events that he hosts. Next week on Wednesday, February 3rd, I'm going to do an advice column stream at five pm PT. So this is going to be a new thing I'm going to start doing monthly, so everyone look out for that. And if you have any burning questions you would like answered, because I'm going to start doing advice regularly, send them to pynkspots@gmail.com. Sorry, I have to do the admin at the end. So thank you, Sebastian. It was a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for coming.

Sebastian [01:06:28] I'm just going through all of the comments from wonderful people.

Nichole [01:06:31] I know, it's so fun to catch up after. So yeah, thanks everyone, we'll see you next week. And then everyone on the live stream, I'm going to play the outro and then we'll have the little afterparty.

Nichole [01:06:52] Hey Pynko, thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, consider supporting it by making a monthly contribution on Patreon by going to patreon.com/pynkspots. You can also make a one-time donation on Venmo to @pynkspots or on PayPal by using the link in the show notes below. Your donations help support a disabled neuroqueer anarchist live off her creative work and that's pretty damn cool.

Pynk Spots

Canceled & Petty with Christopher Sebastian

Listen to this podcast on